TC39 representation for the Node.js Foundation

[rvagg]

I have nowhere else to post this and this is somewhere I can tag with tc-agenda.

I'm proposing that we request of the newly formed board that one of the first orders of business should be to work towards membership of ECMA and formal representation by one or more individuals who's core concern is with server-side JavaScript. (Coming up with candidates is another process all together).

So far we have been fairly passive receivers of whatever they decide to throw into the spec and although there are a number of prominent Node users on TC39 I don't believe there's anyone explicitly representing server-side JavaScript. We have a lot of opinions in Node-land but mostly that just results in frustration in having to accept what others decide to impose on our beloved language.

I believe that the foundation joining ECMA may be straight-forward as we're a non-profit, just like the jQuery Foundation that has also joined. Although, the rules do have some additional wording around non-profits with other organizations as members: http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/join.htm

TC39 is a little opaque, particularly membership, don't bother trying to find details on ecma-international.org. Here's a list, but I'm not sure if it's up to date: http://tc39wiki.calculist.org/about/people/

See also meeting notes at: https://github.com/tc39/tc39-notes which includes names who are present but it's unclear to me if they are members, representatives of members or just interested parties.

It's also unclear to me how you go from being a member organisation of ECMA to getting representation on TC39. But I'm sure someone hanging around here can clear up the confusion.

[bnoordhuis]

/cc @domenic @rwaldron - you probably know more about how TC39 membership works?

[bmeck]

Just a note: if we have a representative I think we will want a way to submit ticket items to them, even if it is just from the weekly call. That would aid in keeping track of things for both sides of communication.

[domenic]

Here's a list, but I'm not sure if it's up to date

Not really up to date. Officially any Ecma member can send a representative. In practice the best way to find out which companies have been sending representatives, and who they have been sending, is to peruse recent minutes, as you noted:

includes names who are present but it's unclear to me if they are members, representatives of members or just interested parties.

Individuals are not members; companies are members. So these are almost all representatives of members, with an occasional invited guest.

It's also unclear to me how you go from being a member organisation of ECMA to getting representation on TC39.

My understanding is that any member organization can start sending anyone. But I might be off. I think there is at least an internal mailing list you somehow want to get on. @ecmageneva may be able to clarify.

---

Note that non-profits are non-voting members. In practice this doesn't seem to be a big deal. You won't be able to threaten vetoing of ES2016 I guess. But hopefully nobody wants to do that.

[mikeal]

I spoke with a representative from ECMA a while back, like 9 months or a year, and gaining membership is less than straightforward.

While membership is offered to non-profits free of charge that doesn't apply to 501(c)6's in some cases because they are member driven organizations. If most of those members are already ECMA members then no big deal but if the members of the org are not ECMA members there is a concern that the non-profit membership is being used as a backdoor to free representation for those companies.

I'm confident that our representatives will rep our community and not just the dues paying members but we'll need to convince ECMA of that. What would help is if existing influential members of TC39 supported our membership and pro-actively advocated for our involvement to the administration at ECMA.

[jasnell]

This is a great idea. This is definitely something that we should have the board work on establishing that relationship and pull together the guidelines around how we can engage. Perhaps @mkdolan has some insight from a LF point of view.

[rwaldron]

My understanding is that any member organization can start sending anyone.

In the past I've asked this specifically and you are correct.

[Fishrock123]

Yes please. This is incredibly important.

[ecmageneva]

Dear All,
this is from the Ecma website, and reflects an earlier General Assembly Decision (around 2000, it was before my time):
"NFP members are non-profit-making organizations. If an NFP is an organization with several organizations as members, then normally it can only become an NFP member in Ecma if its members do not qualify for Company membership in Ecma."
This view has been expressed several times in the GAs and actually in the next round of NFP renewals (which is every year) according to the latest decision in June 2015 we have to ask even each existing NFP if and what they can contribute in kind to the Ecma work. E.g. Jquery has been hosting meetings, Rick Waldron is doing outstanding service to TC39 by taking technical notes, being the 402 Editor...etc... So, the only small change for the acceptance Node.js that I see that they offer sort of similar "candies" like that.

[mikeal]

By "Jquery has been hosting meetings" do they mean that one of their members has helped them host a meeting, JQuery Foundation doesn't have its own office so I'm guessing that is how they hosted a meeting. It's hard to say for sure what "candies" the Node Foundation would bring until we've had a change to attend a few meetings but I would expect us to be as actively involved as the members from jQuery.

[jasnell]

To be honest, this is something that the Foundation board needs to engage on. The TSC can submit a request to the Board to reach out to Ecma and see what is possible. That's what the Board is there for, after all. Let them work out the details.

In the meantime, keep in mind that several members of the TSC (myself included) work for organizations that are already Ecma members and who have people who are already participating in various aspects of TC39. It would make a lot of sense for those of us whose organizations are already involved to coordinate a bit more.

[rwaldron]

By "Jquery has been hosting meetings" do they mean that one of their members has helped them host a meeting, JQuery Foundation doesn't have its own office so I'm guessing that is how they hosted a meeting.

@mikeal Bocoup hosted two meetings on behalf of jQuery Foundation. Tilde will be hosting a meeting in September, also on behalf of jQuery Foundation.

@jasnell

In the meantime, keep in mind that several members of the TSC (myself included) work for organizations that are already Ecma members and who have people who are already participating in various aspects of TC39. It would make a lot of sense for those of us whose organizations are already involved to coordinate a bit more.

Agreed, though I am not a member of TSC I will gladly participate in this effort to improve involvement coordination.

[ecmageneva]

Sorry,
It looks as I have not expressed myself clearly enough...

1. As to Node.js NFP membership in Ecma.
   As I have interpreted Node.js does not qualify for a NFP membership because of the Ecma GA decision. It has its own members, some of them are even Ecma members, as I see it actually the top membership level is even higher than Ecma. Generally I would say that continuation of that discussion (maybe my judgement is wrong...) is better if it is bilateral and if I get official emails from Node.js on that. of course related to that discussion could be how to co-operate (e.g. via joint members / experts serving as "liaisons") between Node.js and Ecma that would be a different topic and could be discussed here.
2. Status of the ongoing NFP discussions in Ecma. This has been ongoing for many-many years.
   Of course how the discussions evolve in Ecma may influence the relationship between Ecma and Node.js. The latest on the NFP membership discussion is as I have reported that the June 2015 GA requested the Ecma Secretraiat that at the next yearly renewal cycle (which we start in October / November 2015) we should tell our NFP membership that although the membership fee currently is zero, but donations in any useful way are most welcome. In that spirit as positive example I brought up jQuery and in person Rick Waldron by hosting meetings and providing significant help in preparing the technical notes of TC39 meetings... Both of them were just examples and are appreciated.

I hope now it is clearer a bit....
Istvan

[jasnell]

No reason to keep this open at this point but it's likely something that we're going to want to revisit.

[mikeal]

@domenic can you invite me to the next TC39 meeting please :)

[domenic]

@mikeal will email you with details!