Official(?) discord abandoned. #25494
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devsnek
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We started the discord as an experiment but unfortunately we've had a lack of both engaged users and engaged moderation. I think at this point its worth considering it a failure. People can continue to use the irc and slack. cc @nodejs/community-committee |
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I also saw some unrelated and inappropriate content. Better to shut it down. Not sure how much active users it has and what's their engagement. |
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Aw that makes me sad since discord is my main source of communication but if that is what the consensus is then so be it |
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The discord is a failed experiment. I have admin ability in there but plan to do none, so I am just going to lock the default user level. No, I do not have time to do anything more. If someone really thinks they can turn it around, I can give them admin but it'd going to be a heck of a lot more work. |
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I would be happy to help @Fishrock123 |
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I'll dm you on Discord |
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I am not looking for helpers. Someone would have to take up and lead the whole thing. |
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My only issue is that i am not yet a pro at node but if that is ok with you i am a capable discord admin. I can create a welcome channel, manage bots, protect users from potentially malicious links, keep discussion respectful and in the correct channels, and help guide the server in any direction we wish to take it. |
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@Johny-Milkshakes I'd be more than glad to accompany you on this journey, in case of course you wish to. After all, 2 brains can't be worse than one, am I right? EDIT: I see you agree. Please dm me if possible, I am enkiel#8029 |
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You might want to take it off the README: @Johnny-Milkshakes @cfanoulis If you are looking to migrate, Nodeiflux has a large (and well-moderated) server: https://discord.gg/PjTAJKF it's the same one from: #20508 (comment) |
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I'd be interested in trying to combine nodeiflux, unofficial node.js, and our experimental server, although i'm not sure where to start with that. (i pinged the owners of the other two about this issue, so anything is possible :P) |
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We can build a bot and create a bridge channel in each server so users in each server can interact with each other. It might be a little redundant being a discord-discord bridge but i have seen it done for matrix-discord in the ipfs server |
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IMO if there's going to be a merge, should just pull off the bandaid. A bridge server encourages people to hang around the old server rather than hop in the new one. Discord has permissions to disable sending messages, so could lock down the old server and post a message saying where to find the new one. I've been running Nodeiflux for a few months (though there's isn't much to do daily). We've got a handful of active contributors, one of whom is talking to a graphic designer about getting a logo. I've thought about doing some community Q&As the way Reactiflux does, but I'm not sure there are enough members online for it to go well. |
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@devsnek I think this would add some more context nodejs/community-committee#352 (comment)
Despite the node.js discord being founded on "the commitment to being safe" nodejs/admin#53 (comment), 2 months after creation, the mods stopped caring about the rules & safety they spent a year arguing for: #17821 (comment) Nobody liked the heavy-handed moderation...so they left. |
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The art of moderating online communities is definitely not easy but i think that can be supplemented with a welcome channel that lays out clear rules and an explanation about how to use the server effectively. Most safety related tasks can be delegated to a bot and a reliable and experienced mod team with a respectful way of handling things can pick up the things that slip by. I've walked both sides of the line being too heavy handed at times and too lenient, being self reflective is important. Mods also dont necessarily have to be seen as the "other" and it is usually easier on everyone if the community sees the mods as one of their own. |
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@jakeNiemiec as much as I would love merging the 2 communities, we would have to merge all communities into the existing Node.js server, for a rather specific (and special) reason. The aforementioned reason is Discord Verification(https://discordapp.com/verification), which essentially verifies that the server is operated by the people it claims to be, and gives the server some more perks (vanity invite, aka something like discord.gg/nodejs + VIP regioning for the server itself, which should mean less latency and less possible downtime) Only issue with that though, is that the person who would have ownership would have to be a member of the Foundation, so that the server can be considered official. If the ownership stays as it is right now, this wouldn't be an issue, but from what I have understood, the current admin wants to step down. So, either me or John would have to join the Foundation, and I am not really sure how the community would react to that. I believe Discord is a very great tool for the whole Node.js community, and can be used very effectively, provided the correct management is provided. EDIT: link added |
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Hey if you want to onboard me to the nodejs foundation that's fine by me 😄 |
@cfanoulis I am saying that I wouldn't be in favor. My point was that it only took a month for the Node.js mods to lose interest in enforcing their own heavy-handed rules (eg. banning for sarcasm). I left after I saw that moderation was not being equally enforced. @vcarl's moderation methodoligy is both scalable and treats community members like adults. |
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That's only for verified servers though @cfanoulis, which I don't believe the Discord server in question is. Nodeiflux is definitely not official in any capacity if that's where the proposed merge would end I don't think it would be appropriate to go through the verification process. As @jakeNiemiec has been providing links to, I've expressed some concerns I had with the approach to server administration that the unofficial server operated under. If there's a foundation member interested in blessing Nodeiflux as an official channel, I'd want to very clearly lay out expectations in advance. Reactiflux recently added guidelines (though we specifically avoided the term "code of conduct" to minimize potential drama) regarding member behavior, which has the principles I've been operating under in Nodeiflux. |
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Just as an clarification, I said that we should verify the existing, "official" server. I looked into possible organisation verification, and I have sent an email to Discord for more information about it. I predict that tomorrow will bring us an answer. |
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@jakeNiemiec most of the moderative action taken by the mods can be offloaded to the bot handling unsolicited invites, blacklisted words etc. and mods can intervene when things get too delicate. Also, if strict rules are the problem, we can just relax those rules a slight bit :D |
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Would also be willing to lend a hand on this if more mods/admins are being recruited. I'm an experienced Reddit/Discord moderator and would be more than happy to help the Node community. |
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I don't mean to impose myself too much as I am a newcomer but I do agree too heavy handed is not the way to go. It would be nice to have an official nodejs server regardless of which server it winds up being. My main reason for opening this issue was simply to legitimize the one that I was linked to in the readme because an average person would consider that official since it's in the readme. I'll sit back now and let you guys make your decisions. |
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Reactiflux just added its first banlist in the over 3 years we've been operating (and it has 4 entries), which was added in response to spam problems. I think we're coming at moderation from very different perspectives, I view banlists as heavy handed. |
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@cfanoulis I think the "official server" is now just "a failed experiment". I don't think @Fishrock123 or @bnb plan to rehabilitate it. If you, @Geo1088, or @Johnny-Milkshakes want to get involved with moderation, I'd inquire over at https://github.com/nodejs/community-committee or https://github.com/nodejs/admin. |
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There are still people (such as myself) who would be interested in doing this properly. However, as I said above, I'd rather do this with people already running servers that have shown positive and healthy growth. I really don't think that who owns the server is the biggest issue here, but if it being owned by the node foundation means we get to also be verified by discord then it seems like a net plus to me. Being easy to find and engage as a user is a must for support/community efforts. I think specific moderation policies are out of scope for the moment. |
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I'll plan to open an issue in the community repo on a while if no one gets to it sooner than me. A bit new to the internal logistics of the Node project, so thanks for the guidance @jakeNiemiec. |
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@devsnek It seems to me that the easiest way to go about it might be to start it with non-foundation moderators who are interested in building the community, and if verification is desirable in the future then ownership can be transferred to a foundation member after the server takes off. |
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/cc @nodejs/moderation |
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If the “heavy handed” moderation required by the CoC isn’t being enforced on the “official” discord, it should be shut down (or removed from the list and handed over to whoever wants it). If someone associated with the foundation can step up to do proper moderation, then it need not be. Has anyone stepped up to do that? (This issue isn’t the place to debate moderation styles nor to get into the “we’re all adults” here fallacy; let’s stay on topic please) If existing communities (eg, on discord) want to become more associated with the foundation, that should be explored separately in another thread. |
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I'd be happy to run it but I'd need at least one other person for the opposite side of the planet. |
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I'm not clear what the topic of this thread is, then. |
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Well I originally created this issue to simply suggest myself as a moderator of the server linked in the readme because it seemed to have no oversight when I joined |
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@devsnek I would be happy to help and discuss around the subject I created the french JS & Node.js community discord three years ago. It still works wonderfully well: |
Jordan, I was criticizing the delivery (heavy-handed, aka clumsy moderation), not the prescription (CoC). Nobody came here to speak out against the CoC, @Fishrock123 sent a message to the hundreds of discord members linking this issue and then locking the server. I would like to see the "Treat all community members with respect and consideration" portion of the CoC followed here, there is an unnecessary (but understandable) amount of contempt in your response. |
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@jakeNiemiec i wasn’t aware that’s what you were referring to; maybe i missed the action being described upthread. I apologize that you hear contempt in my comment; none was intended. |
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@ljharb No problem. I know you folks get a bunch of "detractors", it just sucks to get labeled as such when it was not my intention. |
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I'll be honest, I think we should spin down the discord. I was not initially a fan of spinning up more "official" spaces. While the "brand" is valuable in bringing people in, if it isn't an "official" space where project work is happening I genuinely believe it to be more of a liability then something that benefits the project and foundation. There was a linked thread to "partner" communities. Independent of the implementation details, and concerns that folks have about them, I think this is a much better approach. We should find ways to support / sponsor successful communities as opposed to making more. |
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That makes sense to me. I'll refrain from opening more issues on the topic, but I'm still willing to help mod for any unofficial servers that need it :P |
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Plus one if anyone needs mod help ^^ |
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FWIW, the way I handle adding new moderators is by adding the role to people who are already more or less fulfilling the responsibilities. Reactiflux found all of its mods from users who embodied the culture we wanted to grow. The users who were exceedingly patient and helpful were promoted to mods after demonstrating they could do so consistently and were going to stick around (we added an MVP role later as a stepping stone of sorts). I'd love to have more moderators in Nodeiflux, but you'll have to demonstrate that you'll be a positive force in the server. The guidelines for Reactiflux have some more details: https://www.reactiflux.com/guidelines/
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It is as close to official as you can get without being 'official': Made and admin'd by both a CommComm and TSC member, and listed. |
I locked the discord server months ago. To be specific, January 14th 2019.
If you were expecting something else, I'm not sure what. When I said I really do not have time for this I really meant I do not have time for this. In any capacity. I did this ultimately to ensure without a doubt that in the absence of moderation and admining that nothing could develop which would reflect (more?) poorly on myself or the node project. It is, in that regard, selfish but also necessary. |
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Now that I've said that, if someone wants an extra set of keys to this thing that's actually going to lead all the community work necessary and keep it in a good standing light as a node.js project community, like, idk. Describe why that's you, I guess. I don't really want to be associated with this. |
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Also there were a lot of trolls and shitty memers that joined, for whoever whoever posted links to this. Whoever did that did us a good deal of disservice, |
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I lost hold on what the point of this thread was a while ago and have not been able to pick it back up. I'm going to keep running Nodeiflux smoothly. If node.js decides that our community deserves to be noted, cool. If they want feedback on guidelines to be featured, happy to offer input. No conversation I've had thus far has produced any result, though, so I'm done reaching out. |
Edit: My mistake, I misread your comment as a characterization of those complaining in this thread. |
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@jakeNiemiec Intention and execution are unfortunately two different things. Folks who care of course want more grassroots efforts to be nurtured. But that doesn't mean they end up being safe places for Node.js community members to learn and get assistance with the project. This is why we try to ensure any 'official' community space has active moderators from the moderation team as admins if possible, and it sounds like Jeremiah is saying they no longer have bandwidth to do this. From a practical perspective, I would see a next step of looking to see if 1. there's enough activity to ask the moderation team if someone else can step up and 2. then ask someone to step up to support this. A big challenge here is experienced, trusted team members who can help facilitate the admining to keep these spaces safe, otherwise what @MylesBorins mentioned about adding it to partner communities and moving it out of 'official' might be a good incubation action of sorts so that there's still people discovering it. Trolls exist and can be persistent in malicious behavior or can be a nice person having an off day and not being constructive but persistent. Separately, I don't see anywhere that @Fishrock123 refers to our fellow community members as trolls, though that can also happen on occasion!, and isn't in and of itself an attack on anyone. We fight trolling all the time in our communities. Sometimes it comes from inside the house... |
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For context, what @Fishrock123 is referring to is a non-trivial amount amount of trolls early on in the discord that were posting inappropriate memes and posting transphobic messages. This is not acceptable on any level, and I don't appreciate the original intent being use to counter that – even if that counter is coming from a misunderstanding of context. This discord server was spun up prior to the finalization of Partner Communities, and got into the README.md well before it should have. You can see the date on that tweet of mine as April 23, 2018, while partner communities landed on September 17, 2018. I certainly agree that it is a failed experiment at this point. If there are a non-trivial amount of people that includes a few contributors who would like to revive it (5+) you are more than welcome to but at this point I've not seen that much interest. I will say this: if you are interested in a Node.js Discord server, see @vcarl's Nodiflux. I don't participate in it, so can't vouch for it personally, but it is active and seems to have a healthy community as @vcarl has pointed out multiple times in this thread. This issue can likely be closed now, since the link has been removed from |
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I'd also like to leave with one final note: failure is okay. We've discussed real-time chat for years and years in Node.js, without ever coming up with a truly viable solution. This is an example where I pulled the trigger on something to see if it would work. It didn't, and we learned things from it. That's okay. We can grow from the experience and point to it when this discussion inevitably comes up again in the future. I definitely like that we as a project have been taking this approach more and more recently, and am looking forward to future failures that we can continue to learn from 💖 |
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The link in the README has been removed. I'm going to close this issue. (That doesn't mean relevant discussion has to stop, although I won't lie: I don't mind if it stops.) I've opened a PR to add Nodeiflux to the unofficial resources in the README. #26851 We'll see how far it gets. |
Let me clarify: early on, the discord ended up being linked to some less welcome parts of the internet. Also "to this" was intended to mean "to the discord", and not to anyone in this thread. The kind of stuff I am talking about would likely also get the same people moderated here on github. |
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@Fishrock123 My mistake, I have edited my comment above.
Just remember, when a moderator loses patience with the non-troll segment of the community due to troll actions, trolls win and will be emboldened in future actions:
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It's not hard to moderate a Discord server. You can enforce the need for being in the server longer than 10 minutes, among other things. There is probably not many members because this Discord is not advertised anywhere on the nodejs website, so how do you expect people to join? The first step to getting the Discord working is to create some proper rules and gathering experienced moderators to enforce those rules. You can enable slow mode during heated discussions and use third party bots to detect swearing and other things. If you do not want to use an existing bot, you could make your own as bots are very easy to make and there are libraries in pretty much every programming language. The next step is advertising. Put a link on the nodejs website and submit a pull request to https://github.com/discordapp/discord-open-source. This is guaranteed to get you users. Three. While this is not required, it may be useful to add some fun channels to the server. Everyone needs a break sometimes. |
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Maybe instead of continually telling us off you can go run something yourselves. I am unsubscribing from this. Please do not mention me. |
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Actually, no, since this is about the thing I partially ran, I’m Just going to lock it. |
It seems that the discord server linked in the readme has been abandoned by those who originally set it up and there is inappropriate (potentially malicious) content and confusion among the members. I pinged the moderators and admins of the server and received no response so i am opening an issue here hoping that we can solve this because it looks unprofessional. I have experience moderating two public discords, one with over 25k members and i am willing to help clean up and maintain your discord server (for free). Send me a direct message on discord @ Johnny Milkshakes#1337 or comment on this issue in order to discuss further. I am looking forward to hearing back from someone official and if this is not an appropriate location to discuss please point me in the right direction. Cheers.
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