Shame and Rebelliousness.txt

# !!!!!!READ FROM HERE!!!!!!

college is good

school is bad

you should do homeschooling

you still go there just dont let them punish you

just only do homework and classes you think useful

dont let teachers punish you

talk with ur parents about it

<br>

try it.

chinese people dont try that. people think if a child tastes freedom then they'll be bad. that's why kindergartens here have holiday homework

try it.

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my discord username is porkifiable, if you want to contact.

email: <Porkifiable@outlook.com>

a free version of this book can be found on OneDrive: <https://1drv.ms/f/s!AoS3CwuJesEcjGGxQgc2T_GJ55el>

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# 0.1

It's still not enough freedom for a child to simply be able to choose not to go to school. He should be able to choose to go to school at any time and to leave at any time, to do anything while at school as long as it does not affect others, and to be punished no more than the victim wishes, even if he has harmed others. Only when all these conditions are fulfilled is freedom as I define, roughly achieved.

As a rebellious child, I have to define freedom this way. Otherwise, what if someone tells me, "Either you obey your teachers or I won't raise you"?

# 2 situations

Another peculiarity of school is that it binds you not only with the punishment it reinforces you, it also binds you with the punishment it constrains others with. If the standard is set, it saves you the total amount of punishment you receive and creates the same sense of fear, but it also makes you feel trapped by yourself. It also hides the fear you feel from your constraining person. If you don't always get punished, they will think that you don't feel so bad, even though you always see others being punished and you are in fear.

A child, if he does not want to be constrained, should he increase or decrease his disobedience to achieve this? If he survives a certain amount of punishment (up to the constrainers, etc.) and maintains his disobedience, then others may reduce the constraint on him (because it becomes ineffective), or they may continue to increase the constraint on him (because of anger), or even be reluctant to support him in going to a less good college because of anger and disappointment.

# 4 paragraphs

People always say that teenagers rebel. They are indeed under more pressure than they are younger. But those more fundamental things happen from birth, don't they?

Imagine preparing yourself for life thirty years from now. For thirty years, can someone who has never been exposed to the fear and shame designed for this purpose do it? Maybe not, maybe that's one of the reasons people feel that people need more constraints at a very young age than they do for the next few years. But we should always try to see if there is a more correct way. As far as learning goes, while not the most fun thing to do, it's not completely boring if it's not very tiring. It is beautiful to understand things deeply, even if not to be honored.

From the very beginning of our entry into an organization, strange things happen. Recall the days when you first started school, the teacher would sit or stand in front of you, and your chair would face the teacher. The teacher will not sit with the students, although this will not prevent them from hearing the teacher. You are not allowed to stand up or move around, even though you are sitting at the end of the classroom and no one would be in the way, and the teacher is not lecturing, or you are a person who is more attentive when walking around. You are not allowed to speak casually, even though the teacher is not talking.

Born out of control, facing this extremely complex world at the same time and creating their own psychological structure. It's a long, never-understood story. However, people seem to congenitally benefit from being understood. If you understand what is happening to them and what is going on in their hearts, it may give them the ability to prepare for their lives without discomfort and the ability to love others.

# 123

When teachers lectured students in the front of the classroom - saying something like "Complaining is a sign of lack of discipline" - I always wished someone would kill themselves; I was just not that brave.

I don't know why people support the majesty of teachers. If people are very fragile and commit suicide when they see a majestic teacher, then there will be no majestic teachers in the world.

# 202403

Think of it this way. When you go to school, you study 10 hours a day. If you're not constrained, you can study only what you need to, and 5 hours a day is enough. If you only need to study 5 hours a day, you don't need any punishment or reprimand. You feel now that you can't learn for 5 hours a day. That's because you're still disciplined and you feel angry and sometimes rebellious. And, even if you still need to study 10 hours a day, there are plenty of other ways to do that with no one constraining or punishing you. For example, find a friend to keep you company. Let's say, hypothetically, that you have no idea what you need to learn and therefore you need to learn 15 hours a day after you leave school. Then you just go on to school. Just, you don't need to be punished or disciplined. You skip maybe 30% of the classes freely, and you use 10 × 30% × 1.5 = 4.5(hr) to remedy that. 7 + 4.5 = 11.5(hr) per day. You have just traded 1.5hr/day for freedom and still get the same result. Still, find a friend to accompany you.

# a part of rebelliousness

Constraints are devastating. Being forced to do one thing can cause you to be unwilling to do five things you would otherwise do yourself. You are confronted with your rebellion. Suppose you are also forced to do those five things, because anger is an uncomfortable feeling, or you still try to accept the five things you would have done, you decide to comfort your rebellion. Or, you're just thinking subconsciously. Whatever the case may be, you realize that you can convince yourself that you can study hard for the good of others and not just yourself, you can try to convince yourself that teachers and parents are your employers, and you can try to convince yourself that you wouldn't actually do those five things assuming no one is pushing you. Aware of these things frightens you, because your anger does not want to go away, and because these things may be the reason why others are willing to accept being constrained; whether consciously or not, you always inevitably ask yourself why you can't be as obedient as they are. Another reason to feel fear is that you fear that accepting them will lead you to inadvertently accept what you are not forced to do, or to miss out on ideas that can be used to try and persuade the person constraining you. People criticize you every day with inadequate arguments, and you reflect on it with a hundred times the thought they did when they criticized you, so that you don't feel as bad as being criticized. Lying to yourself or not thinking enough will not make you feel good either, because (1) they will point out tomorrow where you are deceiving yourself or underconsidering (albeit in the middle of 50 criticisms with insufficient reasons), and (2) one of the main reasons why this kind of thinking makes you feel better is that you use your thinking to persuade the person who restricts you in your imagination (although this communication does not have a chance to happen), and false or insufficient reflection does not reassure you.

I just thought of something else. Some people say that school teaches self-discipline. I don't support unnatural consequences by any means, whether or not primary and secondary schools can teach self-discipline. To take a step back, I don't think forcing a person can teach a person self-discipline. And even if it worked, it wouldn't be necessary, because it's perfectly possible for a child to learn self-discipline by facing natural consequences after work - if one has to use the expression "learning self-discipline". I'm in college now, and the busiest days of college aren't nearly as busy as 1/3 of primary and secondary schools here, and most importantly, no one punishes or shames me. I still have to do things to graduate, and I have to push myself to do things sometimes. I realised that I could say to myself, "I went through so much in primary and secondary school, I just need to emulate what I did then, but do college tasks as I wish." That thought really scared me. Although, I could argue that just because I push myself in this way doesn't mean I'm in favour of primary and secondary school; I'd rather I didn't have primary and secondary school experiences to draw on, but primary and secondary school experiences are a fait accompli. But, no, I'm not going to rush myself by recalling my primary and secondary school experiences. To take a step back, a month or two of experience can provide experience, not 12 years of primary and secondary school. Taking another step back, one may feel rebellious and try to deliberately lose the ability to exercise self-discipline that one gets from primary and secondary school. People can be so in love with freedom that after they get it, they still, sometimes, choose to destroy what others have built in them that could have been of use to them.

# a piece of info

I wonder why people punish children before they even talk to them about it. Or, you come across 10 rules and you ask people why that is, and they reply the saying "You can't draw squares and circles without rules", and you ask for specific answers, and then they just say 10 other things that aren't any more specific or appropriate to your situation than that, and won't even admit "I don't know why, but I'm worried you'll screw yourself up if you're not like everyone else". Telling the truth and showing emotion is fragile, using rhetoric and tautology is powerful. Of course, the fact that it's hard for you to find a job to feed yourself gives them the most power.

# a sign

I have something I would like to say about the discipline and hard work aspects you mentioned. I'm Chinese, and religion hasn't been as significant in my experience as yours, but shame is certainly significant. I'm guessing that people – including me, of course – spend an astonishing amount of time (and in many cases more than work) playing with electronics has something to do with some shame. Of course, shame is more about what others impose on you, especially considering that you can't leave the classroom at will when the teacher is reprimanding the students, giving motivational speeches, emphasizing discipline and saving time, and promoting rules and punishments. I feel that China's primary and secondary schools are to a certain extent like schools in other parts of the world, but also like religions in other parts of the world. In addition to planting the seeds of hard work and punishing laziness, they also sow the seeds of rules and discipline – although they are not really clearly linked to hard work (in principle, people can also work hard when they don't follow schedules, clothing, etc., and the punishment for laziness doesn't have to be based on rules). Did I become a harder worker? No. Maybe it was because of my anger at being restrained, or because I spent 4 years lazily in college, or, as people say, the result of a lack of discipline. People will talk about whether you want to mitigate it to gain the other person's buy-in, or break the other person's rebellion, or use some combination of the two, if it's not as effective because of "rebellion". People seem to live a fake life, not making choices for themselves, but confusing the difficulties of real life with the punishment that others deliberately give them when them not really hurting others. I think a culture that doesn't distinguish between the two is an immoral culture - of course, if you distinguish between the two and support the purpose of constraining others without them harming other people as their "character enhancement" or for some other purpose, then it's also an immoral culture. I can't prove that this will do more harm than good, but I love freedom – or more accurately, hate the opposite.

I guess it's mostly American here. Then I want to say to you: I don't believe in the vast majority of constraints on children, I don't think adults should have that much power, and I believe that children's freedom is also important. Most parents probably don't think the same way I do. If, unfortunately, things go as I have already mentioned, I have an indulgent desire: I want every child to have some at least a few months, without facing any tasks, constraints, disciplines, reprimands or punishments, just playing with their phones for weeks on end, and, I advise them to think about their freedom, to be able to feel that they should be allowed to have freedom even as children, and, I advise – only advise – to make some attempts to learn without constraints and completely as willings freely.

If I am to speak to people here, I can't use expressions like these. Some children are ashamed of any words, even "rebellious" words; because any words will be used to "spur" them. I have to be more rebellious and angrier to express my opinions, and be to its full.

When Chinese children see a sign on a train, they will feel ashamed that they have not worked hard to learn geography and calligraphy, just because the sign is a place name printed out by a printer. This is far from a true intrinsic motivation; shame is far from a free choice that a person can control at will.

# a thing about how culture of shame works

I sometimes say 13 hours, sometimes 14 hours, depending on how you count. 7:40–21:50 is 14 hours and 10 minutes, but at noon there is 1 hour and 30 minutes, at night there are 40 minutes, and if you subtract it, then it is 12 hours. If you subtract the recess, then you also subtract 85 minutes, then that's 10 hours and 35 minutes. If you say to an adult that school is 14 hours, you will definitely be criticized for overcounting your study time, lacking motivation, and not meeting their expectations of you being motivated.

Sometimes, definition is an important thing because it involves how people's brains deal with the shame that someone else scolds to them. Some of you may be Americans. One example that comes to mind is that the definitions of the words "freedom", "democracy", and "republic" must be sensitive to some of you. If you're a person who is in a culture of shame, the definition of each word is sensitive, as each word will be used to scold you, or be used to promote the reasons for the rules that bind you. The culture of shame is global; you can feel that.

# a thing

> my mother worked with special needs children
> 
> so shes not the kind you're thinking of

oh

btw it also makes sense to discipline special children more because they may need better academic skill to survive

on the other hand the same amount of punishment may produce less outcome on special children so it also makes to discipline them less

I don't know that people tend to divide the cause into "subjective causes" and "objective causes' when discussing this matter, and then emphasize that if itis a subjective reason, there is no "immunity" for special children. There is some truth to this talk, after all, you can't say that the teachers and the school are restraining you for your own good, but that it is their job and then they convince themselves that it is for your own good.

dont misunderstand my meaning though. i hate teachers and schools.

I don't know what is the point of people arguing about what counts as subjective and what counts as objective in this matter.

Teachers and schools are so institutionalized, rotten, and seemingly immutable that no one cares about the meaning of it all.

Of course, those teachers have reason to talk about it. They do everything possible to restrain you, for the bonus or for your personality improvement or whatever. | also have reason to talk about it. I'm going to take every topic as my chance to destroy everything in the school.

# additional explanation 2

One of the problems with improving the character of others is that it is difficult for you to improve the character of others to a great-enough extent and transform or dissolve the contradictory parts of the other person's psychology, so this will lead to the other person's self-contradiction. Even if we don't like freedom and choose not to ask for the other person's consent, you have to at least consider efficiency. Criticizing others for being too fragile should be said to be an inefficient way to improve the character of others. As for your purpose, that's not something I'm thinking about. Because although you don't like freedom, I like it. So I don't change my opinion just because your purpose is for the good of others or not for the good of others.

# additional explanation

They say that my anger towards school and teachers is due to a lack of learning about traditional culture, and that my thinking is excessive compared to what I have studied. If I were to study traditional culture more, then many aspects of my personality could be improved, including this one. This is indeed a possibility. However, the problem is that I haven't completely neglected learning. During my elementary school years, I devoted a great deal of effort to understanding and interpreting my teachers' words and the underlying ideologies. I tried my best to persuade myself to accept these ideologies, and I believe this should be considered a form of learning. However, my ideologies haven't been shaped successfully enough to prevent me from feeling angry towards teachers and school, having suicidal thoughts, and consciously identifying issues with Western ideologies. This may be my fault; perhaps I was initially too lazy and failed to learn about traditional culture from reliable sources, relying solely on interpreting my teachers' words, which has led to my current state of mind. As for any remedial measures, I am relieved that I am not currently forced to interact with those who hope to remedy the situation.

# also random stuff

i read it again and i noticed that you said you... don't like the idea of "you should have done"? can i say that? i don't know what you are describing... you don't want to regret your lack of self-constraint in the past? or you felt bad when someone else - the teacher or your parents, i guess - blamed you for your lack of that? if you meant the latter, i think that it's hard to focus on the future and get motivated for the future without feeling shamed if you are angry, because focusing on the future means you're obeying and decide to ignore how they treated you, but you want to rebel. for me, i'm always a guy focusing on the past much. i consider the past much and even tried to count out every single time i made a not best choice. but on the other hand, i have really low expectation on my self-constraint and i won't necessarily call a decision just for the current pleasure, the instant fun a bad decision.

# also very very very bad

I saw a comedy video that satirized the schooling controversy, and the argument was related to the things I always said. The meaning of that video is that this argument is overly noisy and seems to lean towards people who think the opposite of what I think. I didn't like the video, and I was saddened that the comments section was full of people who disagreed with my idea. They satirize people like me, humiliate people like me, and don't have the comedic color of that video, that's almost hatred.

They think ideas like mine are corrupt. I don't know why they use such strong words, as if the current students are morally corrupt. Perhaps they are a group of people who regret not studying hard in the first place, they scold others, but they actually want to scold themselves back then, using the same language as the last century.

# an unimportant issue

Why do people worry that school isn't strict enough? If you don't think it's strict enough, you can be strict with your own kids instead of policing what other people do, can't you? So the point is that you don't have the time, so you resort to school to solve your problems. As parents' parenting time increases, schools will inevitably move towards laxity and disorganization, because those who support this change have a reason to oppose the status quo, and those who oppose it have no reason to perpetuate the status quo, unless you want to save someone else and spank someone else's parents.

# ancient

Few people can give what they have received, because the ancestors who paid died and cannot be repaid. Accounts can only be settled between those who are alive and those who are alive in the future. Perhaps, in a long, long time, mankind can go back in time, and how will future people repay their ancestors?

If things go well, I will work in the future, do things for others. Will I pay enough for what I've gotten? How much do they deserve? It's hard to repay, and I can't help hating.

# anger as punishment

The fact that a reprimand can be a punishment certainly has the relatively plain "let you find out what's bad about yourself" part of it, but it's also saying, "I know you won't accept this, but you still have self-contradiction, so you're going to feel bad about it, and I'm going to use that to punish you, and I'm even going to use your feelings of anger and rebellion to punish you. Make you feel annoyed due to your anger and rebellion against me as a punishment."

From punishing one's rebellion in order to avoid one feeling rebellious, to using one's rebellion as a punishment for him.

# anger

When I was in those schools, I asked myself, "Do I want to be ashamed? Do I want to feel fear? Do I want to feel angry?" I hoped that my shame would be resolved by me and left, and I wished that my fears would have left because of the change of the teachers and school. I was pursuing to be able to leave shame, but had given up on leaving fear because I had to be in that environment. And, yes, I wanted me to be angry, and I wanted me to continue to be angry now. Now, I have largely left the shame, restraint and punishment of the outside world, and I am still dealing with my shame, and the departure of those things from the outside world has made my fear lose its source and only come from my heart. I won't completely resolve this fear, I'll keep some to sustain my anger. Even if I stop being angry at all, I can still maintain my opinion, but this opinion will have no source behind it. It's not what I want. If I completely resolve my shame, then I will lose empathy for my own shame before. This is probably something I could forgive, because I was seeking to be able to leave shame. But I would not forgive the present me for completely leaving that fear, because it was too hard for me to leave fear in the school environment, and leaving fear was not my pursuit at that time. I'm going to continue to feel some fear and anger to empathize with my former self. I'm glad he's still alive, and I'm going to hear him say what else I need to feel and do.

# ask

how would you treat a punished kid? how would you treat a rebelling kid?

# at least try it

We cannot allow schools to continue. Adults have forgotten what it's like to be in school, the rules, the discipline, the motivational speeches, the scary atmosphere, and not a single person thinking "You are always allowed to make decisions for yourself without shame. You can leave this room at will." It's not just a matter of reducing workload and school time; people are just playing on their phones after school, hiding from trauma and feelings of self-doubt. Kids are adults, and the worst kids are adults who happen to drink too much. People need to stop thinking reflexively of school, of "the habit and spirit of discipline," of reprimands and punishments. People should study at home and maybe go to some near-random classes on some near-random days just out of necessity and without threat of punishment. You should just hold the other person, ask him what learning content he thinks will be useful to him, ask him how he is feeling recently, remind him to do something he really needs to do, lie next to him playing on his phone, and ask him "Do you want me to remind you? " You give a lot, but you are his roommate, a really close roommate. If you really become his roommate, he will love you naturally. If people have to know math or something before going to college, then just study a few more years before going to college, or just skip a lot of stuff that is useless and you don't want to learn.

At least try it. Give it some time.

# basic

Guys, don't be affected by this too much, but I have a problem to say in my mind.

Sometimes people still stop learning even though they would immediately be at some work harder than learning, because they want to leave the hurt and constraints from the people who feed them or teach them. Or there are opportunities. We don't talk about this case for now. Let's just talk about the former case. That's basically saying "I'll leave the shame and express my anger, while facing the real world." This is not short-sightedness in the general sense. Because even if they only think about the present, they have to face busier and more difficult work. Let's assume that this is their only chance to study, and the parents or the teachers really want them to be responsible to themselves. In this case, obviously the correct way is to say, "If you really feel that shamed and angry, we'll let you go, but you still need to keep studying," rather than keep pushing them more, which won't work, especially in this case, in which they want to leave not even because of the hard learning work. You shouldn't keep trying to push them, to shame them or to force them even more. Because if that works, it hurts too much. And if that doesn't work, you don't even have the chance for a suboptimal choice, in which they aren't pushed much, but they're still studying. Finally, actually, this may not be their only chance. If they regret latter, maybe they can learn again in the future. This is a decent choice isn't it?

So dropping out of school and not studying hard, they are not irresponsible in the same way. Maybe some scolds and punishments work for the second, but we should see the first differently. It is also important that society give people a second chance to learn. After all, in many cases, a better job is the real "intrinsic motivation" to study hard.

# BDSM Novels Written by Chinese Middle School Students

It is with a heart of sorrow that I write this title.

I had a conflicting mood when I was in the upper grades of elementary school. I wanted to completely break away from the constraints and punishments of school attendance and homework, but I couldn't fully achieve this goal. This shouldn't have stopped me from trying to achieve this goal partially, but I didn't want to offend the teacher so that I could keep answering the teachers' casual questions at length during the lesson, preventing the lesson from proceeding quickly, and thus reducing the amount of homework of the class.

Of course, there were other reasons for this. If I became that special kid who had classes two days a week, it would certainly give other students the courage to do the same, which was what I hope. However, it could also cause the teacher to say to other students all day long, that I had good grades, which was a special case and this did not apply to students who had only little worse grades than me. Now that I think about it, this courage was obviously more liberating for my classmates than avoiding a few words from the teacher, and I regret that I didn't do it in the first place. The other point was that I was afraid that if I made such a choice, and then my grades slipped (which would affect nothing to me, because the upper elementary school classes were useless, which I could also clearly feel at the time, also I didn't care anyway), I would have to continue to be like other classmates, and I would be banned from drawing Minecraft drawings with other classmates every day in self-study classes.

But what about now? If I go back to that time now, would I ask my parents as much as possible to ask the school to remove all my study discipline? Yes. I would also insist on not going to junior high school and high school. I would study on my own, take exams, go to college.

I used to be too timid, too awe of the idea that I should be constrained for my own benefit. At the time, there was no one who supported my views even in part, including people online and my classmates. Not a single teacher has ever told me that children can have the freedom to learn a little less, or more freedom to choose how and when they learn. It is dangerous to talk about it, and many classmates are reprimanded and punished for talking about it. Teachers are so confident when they talk about "Useless restraint is also good for cultivating discipline and is therefore useful", and I witness they punish for many minor infractions every day. I may not have chosen to resist, but I have always chosen to oppose it. The first time I resisted, probably in the second year of junior high school, the teacher tried to talk to me in the hallway, but I just didn't stop.

Chinese students are the perfect masochist. When you ask Chinese primary and secondary school students why they don't even have the opportunity to express their objections, they say that things can't change much anyway. If you tell them that we can change a little bit, they will find it too painful to discuss the matter, so say something that supports the teacher's point of view. If you ask people who have graduated from primary and secondary schools in China, they just immediately forgot what happened in primary and secondary schools, because "live in the moment".

There's too much propaganda, there's too much fear, and people who hold opposing views are in a state of shame, but no one enjoys orgasm from it.

# before dinner

I just heard someone shouting outside. I went out to look for them and didn't find the person who shouted. Perhaps the situation was that the man's intuition told him that he feels quite a bit of pain and that things aren't worth it anymore, but he questioned why he couldn't take in more and "elevate his character." I just went to call out, trying to find him. I didn't know what words to use. I could have yelled, "Anyone there?", but it sounded like I was trying to reprimand him to get him to accept something. I could yell, "Are you okay?", but I don't mean for him to stick around or "improve his character" in order to be more "okay" ten years later. I just want him to have choices now, to feel better now, and not by "accepting" something he doesn't like now. He'll be home before long, probably feeling good about dinner and playing on his phone in the middle of the night. Maybe the person who yelled wasn't a rebellious child, and then this thing wouldn't matter much to me.

# chinese culture is immoral

I've tried not to think and just accept it, but I'm too fragile and Chinese elementary and middle school is too painful for me, and I need the part of me that my thinking can give me to rebel to make me feel less bad about my teacher's daily reprimands and motivational speeches, even though it means that I have to deal with the sensitivities that my thinking gives me to what my teacher is saying as well. The two could have been separated, I could have used my thinking almost exclusively to rebel and make me feel less bad about myself, but that's hard in an environment where someone is reprimanding and doing motivational speeches every day.

# do you know we have a lower suicide rate

other reasons include that people here are more fearful, and the society's shaming on suiciding

<br>

People believing in schools is, shall we say, stupid. They go to school six and a half days a week, 13 hours a day, face a ton of rules and punishments, and listen to motivational speeches and reprimands for two hours a day. They commit suicide and the school says it was caused by a student falling in love early and then losing it, which is, shall we say, stupid for people to believe.

Many people know this is not the case, but they still say so. Because they are afraid that more people will commit suicide if they tell the real reason.

By this ingenious way they avoided more deaths and negated the intentions of those who died.

As a rebellious teenager, seeing this phenomenon, I naturally hope that people who commit suicide in the future will make things clear before they die. Because my viewpoint is similar to that of those who commit suicide.

# docx

It's a relief for me that the high school doesn't teach English poetry! Fortunately, the main thing taught in high school is basic science. Otherwise, those studying video game design or cultural media in high school will be in a dilemma.

Do not be deceived by that I posted so much; if you ask me to write the kind of essay required by high school, I will definitely be totally unhappy!

If you split my high school students into two halves, half with video game design as one of the courses and half with entertainment video production as one of the courses, you'll see them only having fun with the other half's stuffs for at least the next 10 years of their lives!

High school education *is* like that. In fact, one of the factors I considered when choosing a college major was not to use too much high school knowledge. If the major uses too much of that, you will definitely not like it. I'm sure most students won't.

once bitten twice shy

I study civil engineering and had to adapt to it when I first went to university. I read a few words from a college math textbook, and then looked around to make sure I was no longer in high school. After doing that a few times, I started to feel that the college math textbook respects me.

The plus sign printed in college math books looks much kinder than the high school books!

The desks and chairs you use in college classes also feel absolutely different from the previous ones. The desks and chairs in college classes are more like the desks and chairs in your home. You should feel that too.

Having to talk to someone before going to the bathroom is definitely different from directly going to the bathroom.

There are so many different places. In high school, after class, you are going to the bathroom, you are in a hurry, but you can't seem too anxious, or the teacher will scold you.

You can't go too fast or the teacher will get angry with you. You also can't walk too slowly or you don't have enough time to go to the bathroom.

In high school, you finish using the bathroom and you get stunned, feel insecure, as if you did something wrong (because you left the classroom), and hurry back.

an inexplicable sense of panic

You'll stare at the tiles on the wall, not knowing where you are and what you're going to do.

ah........

ai...

you're expected to be fearful

and not scaring you is enough reason to fall in love with someone

for me

I'm certainly not like you guys, but I'm actually not like the other students here either. You and they are inherently free.

I am psychologically abnormal, actually.

I would wake up in the middle of the night inexplicably, disturbed that modern people have a better standard of living than the ancients.

but i won't blame myself. it's the schools' fault. and i'll keep being myself.

# feelings about words

what do you think about the sayings and articles telling people not to waste time and see it as losing the life

i think they are right, but the context is often wrong. it's always related to some external demands, related to shame and fear, and constrains. it's rarely a real recommend

and people just don't like time wasters. they regard being friends with them as a danger to themselves or their children, even though a lazy person can still be a better person than those who work hard but lack compassion

The person who utters these words may be soft and friendly, but those who repeat them may overestimate the benefits of valuing the lives of others, underestimate the harm that restraint and criticism can do to others, and mix them with non-selfless aims

In short, others may not regret it, nor will they necessarily approve the hurt of your constraints and words in the future. At the end of the day, you should accept the will of others, not their interests.

So the crux of the question becomes, will you regret it? You will naturally regret or not regret, and you will choose to regret or not regret.

# fuck this

I am strongly opposed to adults punishing children out of children's own interest. But given the bleak outlook of my vision, I want parents to consider at least three things. First, what you demand of your child may not be necessary. For example, it is not necessary for your child to study from time to time each day to reach a certain length of total hours of study over several years of your child's life. Again, for example, attending school is not necessary to be accepted into college, and the correlation or causality of the two in the broader population may not apply to the causality in your child's specific situation. The waste of freedom by micromanagement is another example of a complex issue. In the case of reprimands, emphasizing your child's failure to follow rules and discipline is not justified, considering that you can instead emphasize the end goal of the matter. In terms of punishment, micromanaging waste freedom, but punishment for a longer-term purpose may be harsher than punishment for micro matters, and the two need to be weighed. Consider the following two examples: if the goal is stated in terms of a 5-year deadline, then it would take a horrific punishment to threaten a person with completing the task within that 5-year period; if the goal is stated in terms of a 1-day deadline, then there is the problem of "I'm in a bad mood today, and I could have done it two days later, so why do I have to do it today". At the same severity and effectiveness of one time of punishment, a more macro management should always be pursued. Second, reprimands and punishments may not be the least amount of reprimands and punishments that will achieve the results you want to achieve or can be replaced by remedial behaviors. For example, you may think that the threat of punishment of copying a sentence 100 times will get the child 80% of the points, but in fact only 12.5 times may be needed, and other forms of punishment besides copying may be more in line with the child's wishes and equally effective. In fact, copying is always completely unjustified because it has no advantage over remedial learning. Third, it is possible for the child himself to tell you what kind of punishment he wants and how he wants to be reprimanded. He is the only one who knows the way to force himself to do something in a way that minimizes the cost of freedom. When your entire reprimand and punishment of him is strictly in accordance with what he actively and enthusiastically asks of you in a state of mind which is entirely free from the pressure of other people, and when he can withdraw such a request at any time (cf. the practice of safe word), he is actually completely free. However, I say all these because my vision has a bleak outlook. I am adamantly opposed to adults punishing children out of children's own interest.

I left those schools and am now free. In recent years, I've often chosen to spend time writing these things instead of doing something I need to do, but I haven't screwed anything up. I can't imagine how invasive and ruinous it would be to my life and psyche if someone controlled and reprimanded me for the distraction of the time I spend writing these things from the other things I need to be doing. That's rhetorical; I can certainly imagine it.

# habits

I thought again about what you said yesterday about "habit" or some kind of character of the will. I realize that there is such an understanding of your words: something bordering on cruelty, as a means of providing knowledge, seems unnecessary by the presence of a second education. But this cruelty is inevitable as a way to cultivate habits and sharpen the character of the will. I don't think the middle school here provides long-term habits or character of the will, and I don't feel that in myself. I think I would like to add that the society here does not recognize second education. Success in first education is seen not only as a sign of knowledge and ability, but also as a sign of some kind of "spirit of obedience," which employers want. In addition, people do not trust adults under survival pressure to bother to study, so academically advanced universities are reluctant to accept people who want a second education. This is probably one of the reasons why people receive such an education in middle school here, rather than a second education as a guarantee of repaying the lack of effort if necessary.

# here

What China's primary and secondary school students need is not all-round development, not the spirit of innovation, not the ability to learn independently, and not the cultivation of self-expression. They lack nothing but freedom.

# i watch entertainment videos

I remembered something. I remembered so many, many things, like those teachers who said that false information proved that children needed discipline to improve their scientific literacy, and how many, many ways of thinking became comforting and then exploited by the teachers or created more self-contradiction.

For example, a teacher uses a conspiracy theory argument one day to support discipline and punishment of students, you go home, hug yourself, cry, comfort yourself and say "conspiracy theories are bad", the next day the teacher says that the prevalence of conspiracy theories proves a lack of discipline and punishment of the students, and a student tells the teacher that his statement the day before was a conspiracy theory, and then the teacher will say that "in order to avoid such inconsistencies in human beings, one needs discipline and restraint during one's time as a student", and that "this reflective nature of the student is proof of the success of his education and of the depth of Chinese culture embedded in discipline". but "If you continue to be disruptive and interfere with the normal management of the class, then you will be punished" and the last sentence does not become the first sentence of the teacher's response proving the virtue of mercy.

---

If you neither embrace and use the shame others give you as motivation, nor completely ignore what others say, but simply forget the experiences of your past, then you cannot be considered strong.

---

# learning state and conservatives

I think what the Chinese call children's "learning state" refers to "just do it, don't use your attention to feel dissatisfied." This is also the attitude of conservatives in various countries. The risk that removing unnecessary restraints from a child might lead to the child becoming aware of unsatisfactoriness is considered to outweigh the benefits of conserving more freedom.

# log

\[12:46\]Porkifiable: i keep getting lagged off

\[12:47\]Porkifiable: Especially when they show that they are good for me, I get hurt more.

\[12:47\]: they dont seem that good for you

\[12:48\]Porkifiable: i sent these yesterday:

It's incredibly stupid if people feel worse being irresponsible to themselves than to others, due to the fear of being punished to push them to be better rather than the fear of the natural consequences, and that's for a person who is, like, 30 years old and no one will actually punish them. Not to mention that, usually, people don't use such a way to make themselves more responsible to themselves. Why does saying these and the following make me feel better? Because, since I've made things clear, now I think I can explain to my imaginary punisher why they shouldn't punish me. Also, it feels warm if I find you feel the same way as mine sometimes.

\[12:48\]Porkifiable: yeah

\[12:53\]Porkifiable: do you feel the same way

\[12:54\]: definitely

\[12:54\]: there was a good video i watched about extrinsic vs intrinsic motivation and that sums it up very well

\[12:55\]Porkifiable: i know the 2 concepts

\[12:57\]: very important to know

\[12:57\]Porkifiable: I don't really like psychology very much. Teachers should understand psychological discourse, and more importantly, what students think and feel in their hearts. In reality, neither of them understood.

\[12:58\]Porkifiable: I know both concepts. When the teacher scolds or punishes the classmates in front, I think about these things in my heart.

\[12:59\]: yeah

\[13:00\]Porkifiable: Knowing this makes me feel better, as if I have been understood by someone else (i.e. those psychologists).

\[13:02\]Porkifiable: do you have imaginary punishers in your heart?

\[13:02\]Porkifiable: I'm not talking about imaginary specific people. I am referring to this feeling.

\[13:04\]Porkifiable: You will be afraid of their punishment and will want to talk to them and tell them that "You should not force me or push me like this."

\[13:05\]Porkifiable: But these are all illusions. That person is just in your heart.

\[13:14\]Porkifiable: And it's not just a matter of self-contradiction. It makes sense to mentally simulate what the other person is thinking before expressing your opinion to the other person.

\[13:22\]: i have a punisher in my heart yes,, and i think most people do

\[13:24\]Porkifiable: he won't actually punish you, but you can feel the fear, and be angry then

\[13:28\]Porkifiable: still, it's not just a matter of self-contradiction. it's also to mentally simulate what the other person is thinking before expressing your opinion to the other person.

\[13:34\]Porkifiable: The teacher is too busy to understand the student's heart, but they can occupy such an important place in the student's heart.

\[13:43\]: im sorry your teachers do not understand your heart

\[13:49\]Porkifiable: People say this feeling between children and parents, for me it's me and my teacher lol

\[13:52\]Porkifiable: The counselor said that my case is rare, and most people have a similar complex structure to their parents

\[13:56\]Porkifiable: My conversations with you should be made into children's books.

# medium

<https://medium.com/@porkifiableoinking>

# modern guys

Modern people can be sad and angry, but modern people are spoiled, but modern people can be sad and angry. We may have a sense of identity with the modern era, and may deal with things like disease and life by this.

# more info 1

If you decide that your child doesn't need to feel ashamed or blame themselves for playing on the phone at 3:00 in the middle of the night and not doing their homework, and instead take a more down-to-earth approach to these things and their problems, this decision is not "going against the grain" or "going against the nature of human". It's not like, if you give up on what current education looks like, future kids will still feel so much shame and self-blame because those things aren't caused by education. That's not how things work. These things are caused by education and you can successfully change them if you want to.

# more info

> From the perspective of society as a whole, unruly teenagers are improving social efficiency. Primary and secondary education is nothing more than vicious competition.

say you agree with this

so, like, 10% of your learning is actually useful, 90% is not

as to "you need to grind your character and adapt to following rules blabla", well, there's a natural way - part-time job

so, hell yeah, from the perspective of society as a whole, primary and secondary education is nothing more than vicious competition.

It's not even vicious competition, because it's not you who actively participates in the competition, it's your parents. It's more like, horse racing.

# more of those things

<https://1drv.ms/f/s!AoS3CwuJesEchVqGr7J4xQk592cP?e=tn2EeH> (OneDrive link)

# other stuff

How about using some animations with characters? For example, two people tapping each other in the sun, or looking at the night sky from under a building at night.

# part of the thing

Reputation and glory should be a natural expression of gratitude to others, not a design in management that urges people to work hard. One fifth of the reputation and glory people feel today is the joy of helping others, and four-fifths is to repay the shame of playing on their phones in the middle of the night during their education. None of these issues matter at the end of the day, because reputation and glory are good feelings. What I really care about is the opposite part of the matter, which is shame and the quest for discipline.

# permission

People who are born in a very free environment do not understand why people would want to seek permission from friends or strangers for playing with their mobile phone for a few days. This is my ideal culture. This is not a dangerous mentality.

# profile

i refuse forgetting anything on myself, take others' things as my view's symbol, maybe with an average altruism in the future

# psyche

I spent a lot of time before I went to college to protect my freedom-loving psyche from the school and contemporary Chinese culture of shame. At that time, I often lay in bed in the middle of the night, crying for an hour or two, dealing with my psyche. I won't say I regret that I didn't spend more... time? - to deal with my psyche to allow me to do more things of what was perceived as short-sighted and ungrateful but in line with my heart's quest for freedom, such as accepting a month or two of reprimands from my parents and insisting on homeschooling.

Anyway, it's good to be rebellious, or just to be disobedient and try to make things in your line. I will support that.

# purpose

i want to talk about those again. once i told another guy an experience. here's what i sent to him.

> once a university teacher told us that we should stop being lazy and irresponsible and feel ashamed and motivated as the students from some worldwide first-class universities study to 3 a.m. everyday. and he told us that all depressed people are irresponsible and we should be away from them if we couldn't avoid being influenced by them. the best treatment for depression is to work harder to avoid the mood. and he said that the culture of our university is an unhealthy tendency compared to that of high schools. i told one of my friends that i felt really angry and ashamed because of his words. the friend told me that it's obvious that the teacher was right. i asked him if he was studying. he said that he wasn't but he actually regretted to say that as it was corrupting the ethos.
> 
> i really don't know what to say. i really don't want to see people like them again. at least, at least you don't say that high schools are good. after all that's the main reason why people can't motivate themselves to study till three in the morning in the university.
> 
> of course if universities work like high schools now, the students will probably learn more. i mean, why don't you pursue some organization to control everyone in the society to work hard, considering the truth which i even agree that basically all modern people are lazy, fragile and spoiled.

how do you feel the last paragraph? sometimes we assume that people are rational enough that a free man will make decisions that are at least good for himself. But if we demand more from this "good", can we say that man always makes decisions that best suit (at least) his own interests? Obviously not. We are lazy when we study, eat unhealthy foods, and are addicted to or at least dependent on our phones. And we don't usually try to make ourselves stronger by turning everything we encounter into motivation. But we also cannot seek an external constraint that ruthlessly maximizes our long-term interests. I think that sometimes our will should trump our interests. Thinking about whether you will regret it later seems to be an optional criterion. We often don't regret that we didn't maximize our interests in the first place, we only blame ourselves for being too irresponsible in the past. This is probably why we often use the word "responsible" instead of "do our best" when we talk about students. We (ideally) think that students should meet the basic requirements of society, and then, in the future, don't regret too much not trying hard enough in the first place. We sometimes say "you have to work hard enough" instead of "you have to do your best", which may be due to similar thinking.

# random stuff

there are many people studying IT and the employers consider the actual ability rather than the school and degree more

as the colleges are heavily subsidized do you think the students should take more social responsibility?

i think we should consider the purpose of the subsidy. if it only comes from economic inequality, then it'll be irrelevant to extra expectation. but if it's like environmental protection subsidy, then it'll mean that some people think the college students are the "vital few", who are expected to work harder. i'm in a not bad university so this questions me. for more common universities, whether the content learned will be used in work is a more important issue.

# random things

I think a lot of people know nothing about what's going on with their children. For example, there is a saying that "specific knowledge is not important, but learning ability is important". What I hope is that people should try to minimize the constraint and punishment of their children, but instead let them try to go to work and give them ample opportunities to continue learning. Because learning is all about finding a good job, doing so minimizes the unnatural consequences for your child. But some people don't understand this sentence that way. They interpret this phrase to mean that people should strengthen the discipline of students, because even seemingly meaningless rules and punishments are meaningful in the sense of cultivating habits and improving character. If they think that's what the phrase means, they should object to it.

Here's the thing. It is wrong to elevate a person's personality for the sake of his interests. Attempts to elevate a person's personality by using methods against his will for the benefit of a person are the greatest violations of freedom. You shouldn't do anything like that anyway. For example, if a child wants to run into traffic, your focus should be that he can't run into traffic, and your focus should not be that you want to improve the child's personality so he doesn't run into traffic. Generally speaking, personality enhancement is a bad thing, but in principle it is better to let the child choose which way he wishes.

# regret not being grinded

Some people support the appearance of primary and secondary education here, not only because knowledge is a social requirement for individuals, and students will regret not studying hard in the first place, but also because strict education can sharpen people's will and character. I think this is the most inopportune of these three reasons, because although people will always regret their laziness and even hope that their parents and teachers would treat them more harshly, few people will regret that their will and character have not been well sharpened, and it is difficult to say that this grinding is beneficial to society in the current social environment. Moreover, if a person has been unwilling to accept them, then external constraints cannot sharpen the person's will and character, they will only leave a bunch of habits that will be easily abandoned, so "regret not being sharpened" is just a synonym of "regret not working harder", and teachers who feel that they are sharpening the will of others should know that doing so will always fail, and all you can do is some temporary constraints.

# selfish

Are we too selfish? The child struggles so much, in desire and self-control, and in the face of restraint and punishment. The rules and shame that were meant to avoid people's selfishness are also used to restrain children for their later benefit.

# self-protection

i wish i had used earplugs when i was in middle school but i only started to use them in the 2nd year of high school. what stopped me? well if it had been found it'd be a nightmare. but actually i wish i had started doing that when i was in high school, when my parents supported me more. the problem is that they only reduce the teacher's voice but not to cancel it. so if my mind wasn't ready it might not make me feel better, then it wouldn't worth the risk of being caught. you need a lot of self-protection in your mind to make volume-reduce able to make you feel better.

# sense of shame

translated by ai.

I have shared a lot of my innermost thoughts with you, and you have truly understood what I am saying and expressed some of your own feelings. This is an experience I have never had before. I have been seeking this kind of experience since I was in fourth grade until the end of high school, but I have never succeeded. I want to add that if I shared these things with others, they would either ignore me or criticize me. The criticism is that "for a person's growth and future, we restrain their laziness and disobedience. If he expresses his displeasure to others, it is unfair to the people and organizations who provide the constraints." Whether they are the people I have met on the Internet or not, whether they are the ones who provide those constraints or not.

Why is this considered unfair? I think an important reason is that many people regret later in life that their lack of effort has caused many difficulties in their lives and for their families. A person who does not regret this later in life or feel sorry for how their parents or teachers treated them, has only recently been recognized. I have written some words that you may understand some of these situations. I will paste them below, and you don't have to worry about me.

"Do you wish your teachers had disciplined you more strictly in order for you to work harder and get better grades? Do you think you will wish that in the future?"

The answers are likely to vary. My answer is: I don't wish and I don't think so.

Why? The first reason for the first answer is probably that:

- I am lucky that my family is not financially difficult, and I have access to good educational resources. So I can say these things calmly here without having to rely on studying hard to change my fate.
- I am stubborn. I stubbornly dislike others who try to manipulate my behavior, even if it is by scolding me to study harder.
- I am inflexible. I rigidly oppose teachers who say things like "you are sorry for this or that" "you don't do your homework, you are so shameless" "You are ruining the study atmosphere and making the class fall apart." I rigidly oppose teachers who use other people to speak, saying "Look at the children from rural areas, they can endure hardships, not like you, you don't work hard enough" "Look at those ancient people, not only do they have to read books, but they also have to memorize them" "Look at that Singapore has canning, and now we can't even use corporal punishment. What's the future?" \*
- I am still willing to learn, and I can still support myself with a decent job even without being disciplined by teachers.

And the second reason for the second answer is probably that:

- Certain middle school teachers still made me want to end my life at times, even after I left them.

As I am one of the few people like this, I guess I can't blame the teachers. Unfortunately, I will always be part of this minority.

My mental state is still stable, so you don't need to worry about me. Recently, my interaction with you a few has been one of the reasons for this stability.

Here are some additional things I want to add.

"The first education" refers to the first attempt through university. Or, considering that it is relatively easy to pass through university here, "the first education" refers to the first attempt to enter university.

I dislike inspirational things because I cannot control feeling ashamed from them, and those things are often deliberately used to create shame and fear. People are afraid when they see others working harder than themselves, and they fear that someone will demand that they work harder as a result. If they fail to meet these demands, they will be punished.

When I say "shame," what do I mean? This is a complicated issue, but I think I can roughly describe it. First, you feel self-blame. This does not mean that you feel that you have violated someone else's interests, but rather that you agree with part of the discourse or statement that caused you to feel shame. At the same time, you feel afraid. This fear has two parts. The first part is that you know or have a misconception that someone will force you to become better and if you fail, you will be punished. Instead, you are making yourself better, and even if you fail, there will be no punishment. The second part is that you are afraid of being different from others. This is not necessarily afraid of being different from the majority, but rather afraid that you are worse than those who feel shame and work harder because of it, or worse than those who don't feel shame but are motivated to work harder, or those who are used as examples in inspirational things. I feel that this kind of fear arises from a sense that is inherent in us: "I want to be the most praised person among people, so that I can avoid being attacked for harming others." "Shame" appears as a constraint on students or children, but we can feel "shame" because our genes tell us to be altruistic so that we are not harmed. Please imagine that someone is saying the above "\* sentences" to you for twenty minutes every morning and afternoon. If you do not understand, please imagine a software that records the time you spend using electronic devices on your phone or computer. Someone checks your values ​​every day, and if they think the value is too high, they give a lecture using you as an example, with a theme of "The modern people are lazy and addicted, so they need more constraints." \*\* I think you will feel "shame". You have to admit that the first half of the theme makes sense, but you will also feel afraid, and then angry. In fact, it's even worse than that. The language style that is not easy to make people feel "shame" is used at "\*\*", and in fact, the language style that will be used is "The excellent traditional culture of self-discipline and self-improvement no longer exist in modern times, 'being lazy is fine' and other deviant behaviors are prevailing, therefore, modern people should re-reverence rules and constraints."

I have always been someone who is very sensitive to the distinction between words that express "should" and words that express suggestions. This is the manifestation of my sensitivity to shame. Another example is a statement criticizing me for "paying too much attention to other people's criticisms of me." If I "shift my attention to cultivating habits," I won't feel angry or upset and can "justify my teachers and parents" and receive more constraints. Perhaps you can feel shame from such a statement, as well as fear and anger. For example, why did he say that I need more constraints? Did I not give up my freedom of thought enough? After all, they are for my own good. Did I look at the problem too negatively? Do I lack a "positive embracing" attitude towards things?

I still feel a strong sense of shame from some college teachers when they speak like middle school teachers.

I noticed some details in the way you speak to me. Whether it is a warning or comfort, they show your care for me. However, I wouldn't describe any of the things other people have said to me in the same way.

However, it's too late for you guys. When I was in middle school, I lay in bed and imagined that the mattress was someone who understood and comforted me. It didn't work, so I lay on the floor. It still didn't work. In high school, I calculated in seconds what I would say to my friends before they fled me, in exchange for a 10% reduction in pain that day. They were not always willing to offset that 10% of pain for me. After that, no matter whether it was a lucky day with 90% or not, I would go to the aluminum handrails in the building where my home was and cry. It still didn't work. Now, I can't send you back to be my friend in the past. In fact, you may not be good enough friends with me then.

I am still a fragile and childish person. I have no illness, there are no difficulties in basic life, and I have salad, french fries and ketchup to eat, but I still say the things above. Especially considering that I have already left middle school.

# shame and others' motivations

I used to be ashamed over and over again, and now if someone talks to me like a high school teacher, I still feel ashamed. Before, it made me cry a lot. Why am I so uncomfortable? Because I have an idea, that is, no matter whether a person regrets not working hard in the future, no matter how much the teacher is sincere for the student, and whether a person is an adult or not, if he encounters something, as long as he is strong enough, he can make these things do him more good than harm, then can he hate these things? How could he hate these things!

All my pain reminded me that I wasn't strong enough, because I didn't turn everything into motivation and chose hatred.

If a person does not regret it, he can do something that is not best for himself. It took me a long time to convince myself of this.

A person can hate something that makes him uncomfortable because he didn't make himself strong. It also took me a long time to convince myself of this.

These two points don't explain all my shame, but they are probably the two deepest places in my shame.

# simulation

There are really many different places in college. For example, being late is not a terrible thing, the teacher probably won't say anything, at most criticize you a little, the risk of the score being deducted is very small, even if the score is deducted, the deducted score in the final grade is very small, you will not be punished, less afraid, and the natural consequences are few. Before, being late was really scary. I don't know why the teacher pushed all the students including me so hard. The teacher will want you to have fear in your heart. For simulation purposes, if you're late for work, things don't have to be that bad, and most work doesn't end at 10pm. I also don't think the teacher is doing that to simulate something. I think, on the one hand, all teachers do that, so the next teachers do it out of habit. On the other hand, the teacher will believe that if he punishes the students less harshly, then all the students will soon give up more learning. I don't know why he didn't choose to stop it when it really happened. Perhaps he was too busy to bother to do that way. Perhaps he thought it would be too late to stop this kind of thing when it happened, because two or three weeks, or even three or four days, were valued by him. But that doesn't explain why elementary school teachers do the same. There are indeed students in elementary school who do terrible things, they bully others, or destroy other people's things. But the crux of the matter is that it doesn't matter if he's late. Severely punishing students who are 10 minutes late does not make students not go to the neighborhood near their home after school to destroy items.

# sharpening

Another thing is that in the West, religion currently seems to promote the idea of "Work hard, but in general it's not necessary to work as hard as you can", but the idea of the school culture I used to be in was actually closer to "study as much as you can as long as it doesn't harm your physical health, and your psyche will become stronger as a result of this sharpening. Your psyche will be toughened up by this, and therefore the negative effects (if any) on your mental health will be eliminated or even reversed. If you're in a bad mood, it's because we haven't disciplined and sensitized you enough."

So the emphasis on mental health amongst the current rebellion in the west doesn't really hold water with me on either side. On the one hand is the fact that we tend to think that the human psyche can be sharpened, so that it doesn't necessarily undermine mental health. On the other hand, for someone as rebellious as I am, I certainly wouldn't be satisfied with your formulation of mental health; I would speak from a free-willist perspective.

I have objections to this sharpening argument as well. Because things like learning, it's not like a physical thing that can be made less hard by sharpening or habit. It's more like, you don't feel bad if you want to and you feel bad if you don't. In other words, what's in effect here is probably some sort of propaganda and training for students to turn the shame their teachers give them into motivation, rather than the sharpening or habit itself. But I certainly wouldn't have been satisfied with that kind of opposition. I was a rebellious teenager, and I certainly wouldn't have been satisfied with such opposition.

Including when I was very young, when I was using my fear of teachers to whip myself. Even back then, things weren't about me sharpening my will or me developing certain habits. In other words, you can't expect studying hard to make your future studies any less difficult (knowledge building is another matter). You can instead expect to develop the character that turns the shame others give him into motivation. Both of which, of course, I abhor.

"Sharpening" is basically a form of persuasion that tells you to do what you loathe to avoid your loathing. If having this sense of purpose is the only influence on whether or not you feel disgust, then it's a case of "if you believe it, it's true, if you don't believe it, it's false". Those who believe it have reason to keep on believing it, and those who don't have reason to keep on disbelieving it.

Okay. Well, it should still be my choice in the end, and not something that someone else can force or (in the event that I can't leave) criticize me for. I love freedom, I am a rebellious teenager and left these discourses to identify and control the ideas that they pushed me with left in my mind.

# snapshot of a part

What are you going to do when you have a child and you realize that he doesn't have a good relationship with you, resulting in you not knowing how he is doing and not knowing what to push him to do? Sure, you can say that you're going to stop being so intimidating and hope that he'll at least feel safe enough to tell you how he's doing. But, you could also make communication his task and force him to write 5,000 words of self-criticism, and if he doesn't write it realistically, you go ahead and punish him. Then, you tell him that he should use all the seemingly unnecessary constraints as character enhancement, sharpening his own will.

Can I prove that the latter is bad? What do I mean by "good" or "bad"? I can only say, on the basis of my intuition, that the latter is still inefficient even if these factors are taken into account. But I have nothing to prove; I only argue against the latter.

In fact, I'm going to go farther. I would say that 99% of the constraints placed on a child for his benefit are wrong.

There are other things that are similar to the "character enhancement" that I have been mentioning, such as the spirit of collectivism, the sense of collective honor, and the wisdom of traditional culture.

There are intricate self-interests and altruisms, a group of people who want to be more like another group of people, less offended or "vulnerable", people who use reason as a tool of rebellion, blaming the constrainer for their inefficiency, and at the same time facing the accusations of reason against themselves, coupled with the glory of being the driving force, the shame, the sense of spectacle of a rapidly growing economy, even using rebellion as a self-flagellation (working hard to prove yourself to the teacher). Some people are strong enough to just submit and avoid the thoughts, which might make them feel better. That constrainer knows nothing, he has 0 knowledge of these things, but believes he should maintain the majesty. Communication is dangerous and it's best to just have the student write a self-criticism.

BTW, some don't feel why people'd want to seek permission from friends or strangers for playing with the phone for a few days. This is my ideal culture. This is not a dangerous mentality.

# spirit and performance

Do you think it's a shame to give up? How many times have you not really been strong, but just persevered out of fear of the shame of giving up.

At least to do something useful. Some performances or something, really not very useful.

Will the school force you guys to do something that isn't useful? Or for some far-fetched reasons, to "sharpen the will" or something.

Especially something that is not easy but ritualistic.

> Sometimes, like the homework we're doing now

if you become the minority who don't finish it, will you feel ashamed?

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When you were in elementary and junior high school, in addition to your daily study, what were the activities (such as performances) like?

> uh
> 
> ?

For example, musical performances or sports events. Are they compulsive? Do you think they are useful enough for you that you can accept some of this compulsion?

Because they are not everyday learning, people may be more skeptical about their necessity.

Would your teachers urge you all to attend? Or were the teachers not very concerned about it?

I have a feeling that the unique meaning of these activities lies in a kind of simulation. As for the specific knowledge and abilities you can learn in them, in fact, they can be replaced by courses.

And the course will be a more efficient way than the activity.

It may not be easy to say in terms of cost. But the course doesn't have to be very good, and students can learn it on their own.

So, if it's compulsive or urged, then simulation will be the only thing I identify with it. By the way, sometimes the school wants to show it to the superior leader or the students' parents.

Only look at the part where the schools and the teachers truly want to be good for the students. Here, the schools and the teachers don't actually see some "necessity" as the standard for demanding students; they basically think that this thing is good, and they will force you to do it.

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Let's talk about the original problem. They are also used to linking whether you actively participate in activities and whether you study hard in your usual time. They will feel that forcing you to participate in those activities will also help you in your daily studies, because it promotes your "spirit of obedience" and "spirit of hard work".

"If you don't work hard in activities, can you have a good attitude in your studies?" This is a rhetorical question they will say.

While this correlation may be what they believe, sometimes I feel that they don't believe in the idea of "forcing one to promote the other." They say that, and I think it's often based on the pressure that the school puts on them. In other words, even without taking into account the rhetorical question, the sentence is a rhetorical sentence. It deliberately blurs different concepts in order to push others.

This is sometimes the case. Other times, they really believe that "forcing you to participate in those activities will also help you in your daily studies, because it promotes your 'spirit of obedience' and 'spirit of hard work'."

# stupid

It's incredibly stupid if people feel worse being irresponsible to themselves than to others, due to the fear of being punished to push them to be better rather than the fear of the natural consequences, and that's for a person who is, like, 30 years old and no one will actually punish them. Not to mention that, usually, people don't use such a way to make themselves more responsible to themselves. Why does saying these and the following make me feel better? Because, since I've made things clear, now I think I can explain to my imaginary punisher why they shouldn't punish me. Also, it feels warm if I find you feel the same way as mine sometimes.

# text

When I was in high school, sometimes I had a knife in my bag. When you were giving speech that creates chilling effect and improve character of classmates, I thought that I would either kill myself or kill you. I didn't have earplugs that are effective and discreet enough to stop your words from getting into my ears. Also, I was lazy. I am too lazy to do all kinds of tasks, as well as getting up to go to school, and I didn't want to be forced to do things. It's also important to note that not all suffering was just shame, motivational speeches and horrors, but also things like laziness and willing to play with phone but being forced to do things. My parents didn't let you do that. Whether you do it or not, my parents won't have much to say. You can do otherwise, you won't be fired that easily. Also your life or death has nothing to do with me.

# the server doesnt let me send

I really don't know how to explain many things. If you are scolded and shamed everyday, and others around you are super obedient, it's hard to try to skip school, talk with your parents, to see if you can learn at home, or at least you can cut your school time, or not be punished for not finishing homework, things like that.

In many times, suicide rather than these things is what comes to your mind, because you're too shameful. You are asking yourself to work like everyone around you, to always try to be more hardworking.

You are so scared. You are afraid that once you work less than people around you, you'll be punished. This sense of fear is so bonded to your self-doubt, and shame.

Because theoretically, they constrain you for your own good.

This institutionalization is so disciplining, that you don't even think if you stop, whether you'll really screw yourself up.

You're not doing things for your future. All you think in your heart is, "If I don't obey, then I'm vulnerable. People will shame me and punish me in order to improve my character."

"Or I'm not even vulnerable. I'm just plain lazy. Someone else's job is to eliminate my laziness, and they will succeed, because no one succeeds in rebellion."

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I guess there are two things this has to say. First, freedom of speech is inviolable. The second is that one should be able to control what one's ears hear, which should also be counted as a kind of freedom and inviolability.

# very bad

i want to talk about those again. once i told someone an experience. here's what i sent to him.

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once a university teacher told us that we should stop being lazy and irresponsible and feel ashamed and motivated as the students from some worldwide first-class universities study to 3 a.m. everyday. and he told us that all depressed people are irresponsible and we should be away from them if we couldn't avoid being influenced by them. the best treatment for depression is to work harder to avoid the mood. and he said that the culture of our university is an unhealthy tendency compared to that of high schools. i told one of my friends that i felt really angry and ashamed because of his words. the friend told me that it's obvious that the teacher was right. i asked him if he was studying. he said that he wasn't but he actually regretted to say that as it was corrupting the ethos.

i really don't know what to say. i really don't want to see people like them again. at least, at least you don't say that high schools are good. after all that's the main reason why people can't motivate themselves to study till three in the morning in the university.

of course if universities work like high schools now, the students will probably learn more. i mean, why don't you pursue some organization to control everyone in the society to work hard, considering the truth which i even agree that basically all modern people are lazy, fragile and spoiled.

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how do you feel the last paragraph? sometimes we assume that people are rational enough that a free man will make decisions that are at least good for himself. But if we demand more from this "good", can we say that man always makes decisions that best suit (at least) his own interests? Obviously not. We are lazy when we study, eat unhealthy foods, and are addicted to or at least dependent on our phones. And we don't usually try to make ourselves stronger by turning everything we encounter into motivation. But we also cannot seek an external constraint that ruthlessly maximizes our long-term interests. I think that sometimes our will should trump our interests. Thinking about whether you will regret it later seems to be an optional criterion. We often don't regret that we didn't maximize our interests in the first place, we only blame ourselves for being too irresponsible in the past. This is probably why we often use the word "responsible" instead of "do our best" when we talk about students. We (ideally) think that students should meet the basic requirements of society, and then, in the future, don't regret too much not trying hard enough in the first place. We sometimes say "you have to work hard enough" instead of "you have to do your best", which may be due to similar thinking.

# very bad; you guys

once a university teacher told us that we should stop being lazy and irresponsible and feel ashamed and motivated as the students from some worldwide first-class universities study to 3 a.m. everyday. and he told us that all depressed people are irresponsible and we should be away from them if we couldn't avoid being influenced by them. the best treatment for depression is to work harder to avoid the mood. and he said that the culture of our university is an unhealthy tendency compared to that of high schools. i told one of my friends that i felt really angry and ashamed because of his words. the friend told me that it's obvious that the teacher was right. i asked him if he was studying. he said that he wasn't but he actually regretted to say that as it was corrupting the ethos.

i really don't know what to say. i really don't want to see people like them again. at least, at least you don't say that high schools are good. after all that's the main reason why people can't motivate themselves to study till three in the morning in the university.

of course if universities work like high schools now, the students will probably learn more. i mean, why don't you pursue some organization to control everyone in the society to work hard, considering the truth which i even agree that basically all modern people are lazy, fragile and spoiled.

# very unimportant

I thought about the following. A child who strategically puts aside his quest for freedom and treats punishment as a job to make himself feel better. How's that? A child who always puts aside the pursuit of freedom and sees punishment as work. How's that? I would say that for the former, that in itself should also be his choice. For the latter, I want to take a rebellious attitude and don't want people to be like that.

# very very very bad 2

how do you think those articles and speeches talking about people who work really hard as a motivative method? will you feel shame or some sense obligation for those? do you like those? i always don't like them, which i think is because i have an experience for like 8 years or longer time, in which people showed me motivative stories, expressed expectations on me, used them to defend new rules and the punishments and scolds, asked me to feel shame and guilty, and constrained me using real power at the same time.

# very very very bad

I just searched online for "How to deal with rebellious teenagers". I searched in English. I want to see what you have there. Ah, although the results were generally much better than mine, I was still a little angry after reading it! "More stable rules" is definitely not what I want! Also, there are teenagers who feel angry and rebellious, but still think things through (like me, haha, even though I'm not in school anymore, I'm a little older). I really don't want to be treated in a "routine" way, but there are so many routines in that advice! "Anger management" makes me angry, haha, why don't you use expressions like "Don't do anything too bad because you're angry"? The word "management" sounds like you're going to put a lot of discipline on anger! There are many, many other things that I disagree with, not just these three, but I have expressed my views to you at other times and won't mention them here. In addition, I actually dislike words like "teen" and "teenager". I don't want teachers or parents to prejudge my thoughts on these things based on my age. Again, I think people who are four or five already understand all this. More importantly, I'm right in front of you. Why are you searching the Internet for what you're going to do to me? You chose not to understand me and reduce the constraints and rules, but to search the Internet for how to deal with me.

One more thing I want to ask you, why do you think people talk about fast cars, not getting homework done, and getting tattoos all in the same category? They're very different, aren't they? The first two are more about fun (the second also has to do with laziness), the first is really dangerous, and the second is probably less ideal but not really dangerous. The third is to express disobedience and rebellion, which has little to do with fun or danger. They are very different things to me. Why do you think people talk about them together? I don't think it's good when people make rules for teenagers (and younger people) that don't explain the different reasons why these things are prohibited, but just ban them all. In fact, before making any rules, do your best to try to solve problems through communication and understanding, right? I used to wonder why your school had a ban on tattoos and hair coloring (we certainly have more, but I'm pretty sure it's more complicated), and it took me a while to realize that the main reason seemed to be to avoid upsetting my parents! Do you think that's the main reason? Do you support these bans (especially given that some parents might be okay with them)?

By the way, are you ashamed to see colored bricks? I can! I would be ashamed of myself for not laying the bricks. I walk down the street and everything I see makes me feel a similar sense of shame. Objectively, the teachers I had, the schools I went to, contributed to this stigma. I hate the shame I feel.

I really resent any constraints I was given growing up! Especially those that are (in part) for my own good; The part that prevents me from hurting others makes more sense to me. I don't think I'd be too bad if I never faced any of those constraints! For many things, just a little warning from a friend is really enough for me. I am sorry and angry that I have faced so many rules and restrictions, and I believe they are unnecessary or excessive for many students on my side. Besides, I am a person who hates all (almost all) rules and even opposes (many) rules!

Do you want to teach rebellious and angry me? If you must do so, I have no choice but to thank you. You have to be light, though! Ha ha! I'll read what you said to me carefully.

Parents and teachers should try to avoid unnecessary constraints and punishments, use them at most to prevent children and students from doing bad things rather than "icing on the cake", and try to understand and comfort (if the other person is receptive). Is that what most people think there?

How much discipline and expectations do your teachers, schools, and parents have for students and children other than learning and things related to safety? For example, is neatness something they urge or even declare a rule on? Is it okay to complain about the teachers and the school like I did? How do you feel about roughhouse with your friends? Do you get scolded for snapping your fingers? Do you get reprimanded for swearing? What kind of clothes can you wear? How intimate messages (physical, verbal, body related, non-body related) can you send to your crush online? How much of the relevant constraints and rules are for your benefit, and how much are they because they want to see you -- even if not emotionally -- endorse the constraints and rules they give you? For myself, I emphasize mainly my anger and dissatisfaction with the constraints and rules of study, because I have the greatest conflict with them. But I also feel angry and resentful about other constraints and rules. In some cases, I do want to do things that are forbidden. In some cases, I don't want to do things that are forbidden, but I think I should be allowed to do that, and I want to be allowed to do that.

How do you use the word "rebellious" to describe us and younger people? I have always used it to describe myself as a neutral word for feeling angry and unnecessary at being constrained, especially by constraints that are (in part) for my own good, and a strong desire to change their attitude towards me, to change their constraints on me, or to leave them (mainly teachers).

Oinking,  
Porkifiable

# we'll call that a freedom

why are those words bad

they're associated with punishment and fear in my mind

and human needs others' support for their opinion i guess

and we all tried. i guess we all regret that we tried actually. others told us it's necessary to improve character through those words or something. and we found that it is far from necessary later. but it is too late; that sense of shame sticks in our minds and others keep using that to push us or to advocate what they think of.

you can't help yourself stuck on those opinion. it's not to say that you don't want to leave. your willing is to leave. to leave now, no matter if it is for you able to leave later in your life or something. we choose not to care about that, and also it's not the truth. it's different to be scolded when you work for others and to be shamed when they say it's for your personal improvement. and we didn't choose that freely in the first place. it's a way to control yourself to not to be punished, isn't it. so, whatever. i'll say it's one's freedom to control what their ears hear.

it's pathetic, that we can't really rebel with our whole mind. but it's our willing to leave those words. and things are like that, so that's the only choice. we'll call that a freedom.

so the question becomes why they say words like that in the first place. so maybe they use that to constrain us, or otherwise they'll just use more straight-forward punishment. or they don't know it sucks. they thought it is like some painless thing.

and they didn't give us a choice to tell them that it sucks. like, why do you even say a word to them? you hate those teachers and you can't scold them or you'll be punished.

so you can only say some soft words. and there's still a chance that you'll be punished or spied on. and they'll say they're already indulging you. and you need to say soft words so you need to be humble to try to avoid being humbled more.

so what to do now. never never forget anything of these? and maybe your child or students will be shameless for their own choices? and i treat freedom as a belief. so i won't regret anything and will still believe in freedom. that is rebellious, but, like, something makes you feel bad, so you have a belief against it now.

like, if you want, you can make rebellion a strong reason, right?

like, only fully rational dudes aren't rebellious. but people still believe in other things. so will we, right?

# when criticism turns back into information and advice

As far as one's own affairs are concerned, criticism should not be imposed on others, but should only appear when people actively seek it. But the trauma caused by the school and some parents is so great that people don't use the word "criticism" when they ask friends or experienced people if there is anything wrong with what they are doing. People must put an end to the status quo, stop the unsought comments, and let criticism reappear only in situations where people actively seek it.

# why chinese people are immoral

Chinese people do not consent, they accept, including two hours of reprimand and motivational speeches every day, which is why Chinese people are immoral.

Because there are always people who are sensitive to these words, who feel bad about themselves every day because of them, who feel that they are not hardworking enough, that their character needs to be improved, who can't do without caring about them, but who don't accept them like other people do, but who constantly feel angry at being pushed by the words, and who have a clear will to run away from them. The Chinese violated the Chinese with the above qualities.

# whydoitrylife