Skip to content
New issue

Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.

By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.

Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account

[FIX] Rewrite the MRI/fieldmaps subsection for consistency with the rest of specs #651

Merged
merged 11 commits into from
Nov 6, 2020

Conversation

oesteban
Copy link
Collaborator

@oesteban oesteban commented Oct 23, 2020

The fieldmaps specification was really particular, not abiding by the formatting and style of other MRI sections.

This PR is meant as a refactor, just clarifying some aspects and standardizing the section before #622 is finally addressed.

this commit rewrites the fieldmaps subsection to better allocate the
proposed changes, while making its structure more consistent with the
previous contents of the section.
@oesteban oesteban marked this pull request as ready for review October 23, 2020 17:30
@@ -609,32 +601,34 @@ sub-<label>/[ses-<label>/]
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_phasediff.nii[.gz]
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_phasediff.json
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude1.nii[.gz]
[sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz]]
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Including brackets around the whole filename to indicate that it's an optional file isn't used consistently across the specification. I think it really only shows up in the MEG/EEG sections, so I'm not sure if we want to introduce it here.

Also, the schema isn't capable of storing that kind of information at the moment, so those brackets will be removed when/if #610 is merged.

Copy link
Collaborator Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Not sure what the alternative would be. Any suggestions?

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Not sure what the alternative would be

I think it'd be fine not to communicate requirement level in the "template" section. After all, we are also not distinguishing between recommended and required files either. Users can see which files are optional from the spec text.

Copy link
Collaborator Author

@oesteban oesteban Oct 27, 2020

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I'm not particularly attached to this indication of an optional data object, but I think there are two different discussions here.

  1. Whether the schema can store this information at the moment -- here the question is whether the schema should store this information, actually. I guess so, because the validator needs to know whether magnitude2 must be found (phase1/2 fieldmaps) or is optional (phasediff fieldmaps).
  2. Whether the template is the right place to state the indication

IMHO, 1) is harder to address, and outside the scope of this PR -- I guess that merging #610 will have to address this question, and if that means that the brackets in the template are gone because some other mechanism implements this, I'm fine by that (that's how BIDS evolves, anyways).

Then 2) - I think that the Template is basically what most of the people check when preparing their data. Therefore, I think this is the most effective way of expressing that this element is optional. It also needs to be clearly stated within the text, but considering that magnitude2 may and may not be optional (phasediff and phase1/2, respectively), there is a larger chance this is lost in some future refactor. For clarity, I think having the template annotated with requirement levels, especially when irregular, is very useful.

@tsalo: would something like:

        sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz]  # OPTIONAL

work out?

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

There really isn't any mechanism for stating that some suffixes or extensions are optional in combination with others in the schema at the moment, so #610 will erase any indications of that from templates and users will need to rely on the text for that kind of information. I don't think it's that big a deal to address this issue in #610 though.

Copy link
Collaborator Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

What would you prefer then for this PR?

        [sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz]]

or

        sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz]  # OPTIONAL

I'm leaning towards the # OPTIONAL annotation which is more visible and obvious - WDYT?

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I think # OPTIONAL works well.

oesteban added a commit to oesteban/bids-specification that referenced this pull request Oct 23, 2020
This PR addresses the problem @mattcieslak spotted at in bids-standard#239.

This enhancement (WIP) basically allows for researchers to encode
the protocol's intent regarding fieldmaps.

As @satra introduced in bids-standard#239 (comment),
BIDS "*could encode intent and automation. Whether it should is a community decision."

This PR proposes a solution to encoding the intent. It doesn't modify
anything to allow also encoding automation.

The PR attempts to be backwards compatible, and is based off of bids-standard#651,
where the text about fieldmaps is being revised.

I'm submitting this draft PR to open discussions and looking forward to
feedback.

Resolves: bids-standard#239.
Depends: bids-standard#651.
References: #263, nipreps/dmriprep#43, bids-standard/bids-2-devel#39
@oesteban
Copy link
Collaborator Author

This is ready for review

cc/ @bids-standard/raw-mri-anat @bids-standard/raw-mri-dwi @bids-standard/raw-mri-func

as this important principle was buried in the bottom of the fieldmaps
section.
@oesteban
Copy link
Collaborator Author

Particularly interested in @chrisgorgo's opinion on my commit (dd3c87f), as I remember some debate when dir-<label> was added to the standard.

@oesteban oesteban added consistency Spec is (potentially) inconsistent formatting Aesthetics and formatting of the spec MRI field maps labels Oct 24, 2020
oesteban added a commit to oesteban/bids-specification that referenced this pull request Oct 26, 2020
This PR addresses the problem @mattcieslak spotted at in bids-standard#239.

This enhancement (WIP) basically allows for researchers to encode
the protocol's intent regarding fieldmaps.

As @satra introduced in bids-standard#239 (comment),
BIDS "*could encode intent and automation. Whether it should is a community decision."

This PR proposes a solution to encoding the intent. It doesn't modify
anything to allow also encoding automation.

The PR attempts to be backwards compatible, and is based off of bids-standard#651,
where the text about fieldmaps is being revised.

I'm submitting this draft PR to open discussions and looking forward to
feedback.

Resolves: bids-standard#239.
Depends: bids-standard#651.
References: #263, nipreps/dmriprep#43, bids-standard/bids-2-devel#39
oesteban added a commit to oesteban/bids-specification that referenced this pull request Oct 26, 2020
This PR addresses the problem @mattcieslak spotted at in bids-standard#239.

This enhancement (WIP) basically allows for researchers to encode
the protocol's intent regarding fieldmaps.

As @satra introduced in bids-standard#239 (comment),
BIDS "*could encode intent and automation. Whether it should is a community decision."

This PR proposes a solution to encoding the intent. It doesn't modify
anything to allow also encoding automation.

The PR attempts to be backwards compatible, and is based off of bids-standard#651,
where the text about fieldmaps is being revised.

I'm submitting this draft PR to open discussions and looking forward to
feedback.

Resolves: bids-standard#239.
Depends: bids-standard#651.
References: #263, nipreps/dmriprep#43, bids-standard/bids-2-devel#39
Copy link
Member

@tsalo tsalo left a comment

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I have some minor changes, but this is looking really good. Thank you for doing it!

src/02-common-principles.md Outdated Show resolved Hide resolved
Comment on lines 609 to +610
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude1.nii[.gz]
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz] # OPTIONAL
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

One thing that confuses me about this template (even before this PR)- wouldn't we still have jsons for the magnitude maps?

Copy link
Collaborator Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

The magnitude maps are part of the acquisition (as the phase maps are), so all the metadata is probably best stored only on the phase information files. I'm not sure what metadata could possibly exist that only applies to the magnitude (and doesn't to the phase).

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

That's true, but I don't think that kind of relationship is supported in the specification. I guess we would call it something like horizontal inheritance?

I could be wrong though.

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

For tools like pybids, I think you need sidecar files for the magnitude images in order to extract their metadata. @effigies is that still the case or can pybids infer metadata from linked files?

Copy link
Collaborator Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I haven't encountered any case where PyBIDS could not correctly query the metadata of fieldmaps.

Copy link
Collaborator

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I had phase1/phase2/magnitude1/magnitude2 images, and I believe I had to duplicate the metadata across both phase and magnitude images.

@oesteban oesteban requested a review from tsalo October 27, 2020 17:01
oesteban added a commit to oesteban/bids-specification that referenced this pull request Oct 28, 2020
This PR addresses the problem @mattcieslak spotted at in bids-standard#239.

This enhancement (WIP) basically allows for researchers to encode
the protocol's intent regarding fieldmaps.

As @satra introduced in bids-standard#239 (comment),
BIDS "*could encode intent and automation. Whether it should is a community decision."

This PR proposes a solution to encoding the intent. It doesn't modify
anything to allow also encoding automation.

The PR attempts to be backwards compatible, and is based off of bids-standard#651,
where the text about fieldmaps is being revised.

I'm submitting this draft PR to open discussions and looking forward to
feedback.

Resolves: bids-standard#239.
Depends: bids-standard#651.
References: #263, nipreps/dmriprep#43, bids-standard/bids-2-devel#39
oesteban added a commit to oesteban/bids-specification that referenced this pull request Oct 28, 2020
This PR addresses the problem @mattcieslak spotted at in bids-standard#239.

This enhancement (WIP) basically allows for researchers to encode
the protocol's intent regarding fieldmaps.

As @satra introduced in bids-standard#239 (comment),
BIDS "*could encode intent and automation. Whether it should is a community decision."

This PR proposes a solution to encoding the intent. It doesn't modify
anything to allow also encoding automation.

The PR attempts to be backwards compatible, and is based off of bids-standard#651,
where the text about fieldmaps is being revised.

I'm submitting this draft PR to open discussions and looking forward to
feedback.

Resolves: bids-standard#239.
Depends: bids-standard#651.
References: #263, nipreps/dmriprep#43, bids-standard/bids-2-devel#39
@oesteban
Copy link
Collaborator Author

Care for a couple of green ticks?

cc/ @bids-standard/raw-mri-anat @bids-standard/raw-mri-dwi @bids-standard/raw-mri-func

src/02-common-principles.md Outdated Show resolved Hide resolved
src/02-common-principles.md Outdated Show resolved Hide resolved
@@ -609,32 +607,38 @@ sub-<label>/[ses-<label>/]
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_phasediff.nii[.gz]
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_phasediff.json
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude1.nii[.gz]
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz] # OPTIONAL
Copy link
Collaborator

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

sbref files are also optional, but not labeled so in the template.

Suggested change
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz] # OPTIONAL
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz]

Copy link
Collaborator Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I think it is important to mark optional elements on the template. Following that argument all fieldmaps are essentially optional because a BIDS-valid dataset may or may not have them.

There's been some discussion about this annotation with @tsalo. Could you read through that and then let us know if you still think this change should be made (i.e., remove the OPTIONAL annotation in the template)?

Copy link
Collaborator Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Also, I'm growing a feeling that _sbref should not exist altogether.

Copy link
Collaborator

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Agreed that all files are optional, so it seems strange to mark one out as super-extra optional in either form. (I did find and mark unresolved that comment thread, btw.)

Immediately below the template is:

where the REQUIRED _phasediff image corresponds to the phase-drift map between echo times, the REQUIRED _magnitude1 image corresponds to the shorter echo time, and the OPTIONAL _magnitude2 image to the longer echo time.

I don't understand why we need to add novel markup to the template when the text is right there.

Just as a final point, I would say that I'm not opposed to the concept of indicating in the template that one file in a group is optional, but I am opposed to introducing it in a one-off manner. I would rather we made a principled decision that takes into account all such groupings and applies it to the entire spec in one PR.

That said, I won't block this PR over this quibble.

Copy link
Collaborator Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I don't understand why we need to add novel markup to the template when the text is right there.

Most people will not read that paragraph, especially if they feel they know the specification and are making a quick confirmatory look-up.

Just as a final point, I would say that I'm not opposed to the concept of indicating in the template that one file in a group is optional, but I am opposed to introducing it in a one-off manner. I would rather we made a principled decision that takes into account all such groupings and applies it to the entire spec in one PR.

I agree with this. For this PR I see three alternatives:

  1. Leave it as is now and come back to the issue later (or within [SCHEMA] Render schema elements in text #610)
  2. Roll it back to [] since that nomenclature, even though not formalized, is apparently present elsewhere in BIDS (and finally address it within [SCHEMA] Render schema elements in text #610).
  3. Remove any annotations (and bring them up in a separate PR or [SCHEMA] Render schema elements in text #610).

I think 3 would be the best option, but I'm afraid that this will concept will be probably lost (I'm honestly not willing to go through the whole spec to propose something in a separate PR or in #610). So, after the discussion with @tsalo I think I prefer option 1.

Comment on lines 609 to +610
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude1.nii[.gz]
sub-<label>[_ses-<label>][_acq-<label>][_run-<index>]_magnitude2.nii[.gz] # OPTIONAL
Copy link
Collaborator

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I had phase1/phase2/magnitude1/magnitude2 images, and I believe I had to duplicate the metadata across both phase and magnitude images.

Co-authored-by: Chris Markiewicz <[email protected]>
@oesteban
Copy link
Collaborator Author

oesteban commented Nov 3, 2020

Can I ask for one more blessing?

@effigies
Copy link
Collaborator

effigies commented Nov 6, 2020

5 business days since last change and 2 positive reviews. Merging.

Thanks for this effort, @oesteban!

@effigies effigies merged commit 4be793f into bids-standard:master Nov 6, 2020
@oesteban oesteban deleted the rf/mri-fieldmaps branch November 6, 2020 16:21
oesteban added a commit to oesteban/bids-specification that referenced this pull request Nov 6, 2020
This PR addresses the problem @mattcieslak spotted at in bids-standard#239.

This enhancement (WIP) basically allows for researchers to encode
the protocol's intent regarding fieldmaps.

As @satra introduced in bids-standard#239 (comment),
BIDS "*could encode intent and automation. Whether it should is a community decision."

This PR proposes a solution to encoding the intent. It doesn't modify
anything to allow also encoding automation.

The PR attempts to be backwards compatible, and is based off of bids-standard#651,
where the text about fieldmaps is being revised.

I'm submitting this draft PR to open discussions and looking forward to
feedback.

Resolves: bids-standard#239.
Depends: bids-standard#651.
References: #263, nipreps/dmriprep#43, bids-standard/bids-2-devel#39
oesteban added a commit to oesteban/bids-specification that referenced this pull request Apr 5, 2021
This PR addresses the problem @mattcieslak spotted at in bids-standard#239.

This enhancement (WIP) basically allows for researchers to encode
the protocol's intent regarding fieldmaps.

As @satra introduced in bids-standard#239 (comment),
BIDS "*could encode intent and automation. Whether it should is a community decision."

This PR proposes a solution to encoding the intent. It doesn't modify
anything to allow also encoding automation.

The PR attempts to be backwards compatible, and is based off of bids-standard#651,
where the text about fieldmaps is being revised.

I'm submitting this draft PR to open discussions and looking forward to
feedback.

Resolves: bids-standard#239.
Depends: bids-standard#651.
References: #263, nipreps/dmriprep#43, bids-standard/bids-2-devel#39
Sign up for free to join this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in to comment
Labels
consistency Spec is (potentially) inconsistent formatting Aesthetics and formatting of the spec MRI field maps
Projects
None yet
Development

Successfully merging this pull request may close these issues.

4 participants