MSC2176: Update the redaction rules #2176

richvdh · 2019-07-14T21:51:38Z

proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

ara4n · 2019-07-14T21:55:16Z

looks plausible to me. sounds like we should get it out there in a room v6 sooner than later

richvdh · 2019-07-15T09:36:26Z

We probably need to get agreement on #1996 and matrix-org/matrix-spec#357 as a prerequisite here. If people have opinions on them, perhaps they could weigh in on the relevant bugs.

bwindels · 2019-07-15T10:49:38Z

For completeness, there is also some ongoing discussion as part of MSC1849/2154 about preserving content/m.relates_to/rel_type on redaction for at least edits, if not all relations.

proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

turt2live

lgtm - I'm more torn on whether notifications on power levels should be kept though.

proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

fix typo Co-Authored-By: Kitsune Ral <[email protected]>

richvdh · 2019-07-16T19:04:35Z

A quick note on some of my thinking here.

As I see it, there is a scale between properties which we absolutely must preserve on redaction, for fear of breaking the protocol (mostly those involved in event auth), and those which have very little effect on the protocol at all so can safely be redacted. Somewhere in the middle we have things like predecessor, which probably isn't really a thing you want to redact, but actually the protocol will mostly keep working.

I'm trying quite hard to limit the list of things that get preserved to things which completely break the protocol, rather than just things that are a bit annoying/surprising when you redact them, mostly to keep the server-server protocol as simple as possible. The fact that we have to bump the room version to change the redaction rules also means that it's really not great to have to keep adding new rules. Rather, I see it as the job of either clients (or, possibly, the C-S API) to protect you from foot-guns.

All that said, there is room for debate on where different keys sit on that scale, and where we draw the line, but I'd like each candidate to be retained to be argued on its own merits.

turt2live · 2019-07-17T05:39:45Z

proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

+   * the `notifications` key. Rationale: symmetry with the other `power_levels`
+     settings. (Maybe? See
+     https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1601#issuecomment-511237744.)
+


m.room.encryption's algorithm should be preserved.

I disagree. It doesn't change the behaviour of the room at the server-server level.

But if we eventually have two algorithms rather than one how should a client treat m.room.encryption with redacted algorithm?

But if we eventually have two algorithms rather than one

I don't think there is a way to end up with two encryption algorithms in the room state?

how should a client treat m.room.encryption with redacted algorithm?

The same way that they should treat a new m.room.encryption event which disables encryption: with great suspicion.

How are new clients to the room meant to do encryption if they don't know the algorithm?

Can we please relax the restrictions on what goes into the algorithm? It affects client authors too, and it's ridiculous to exclude something because it doesn't affect the core protocol operation.

@KitsuneRal: I think there might be a misunderstanding here.

there's no good way for a client to handle any readable content of the room once that state is broken
...
this room is irreparably broken along with all of its encrypted messages already in DAG.

m.room.encryption is not supposed to define how you interpret received events, so I don't agree that the existing messages are invalidated once m.room.encryption is redacted.

again - repeated encryption events are not proper

there is nothing wrong with repeated m.room.encryption events?

m.room.encryption is not supposed to define how you interpret received events, so I don't agree that the existing messages are invalidated once m.room.encryption is redacted.

That's a pretty strong statement. Then what's the purpose of algorithm there?

there is nothing wrong with repeated m.room.encryption events?

Except they should be treated with great suspicion because there's no defined semantics for any m.room.encryption event except the first one?

Then what's the purpose of algorithm there?

It indicates to clients how they should encrypt messages in this room.

there's no defined semantics for any m.room.encryption event except the first one?

I don't think that's true. I can't find anything in the spec about this, but my mental model is that clients should keep a record of rooms which are encrypted (along with the encryption algorithm), and give the user a warning if they send a message in a room which was previously encrypted and is no longer (or if the encryption is 'weaker', for some handwavey definition of weaker).

But certainly it's valid for there to be multiple encryption events in a room, changing minor settings.

There's also the problem of clients joining a room which has a redacted encryption event: They won't have the prior knowledge that it was encrypted and will assume it's not.

ftr riot-web does exactly as you describe: it ignores changes to the encryption event it wasn't expecting.

I've created https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2272 for clarifying the semantics of m.room.encryption events. I'd suggest ignoring m.room.encryption for the purposes of this MSC, and discussing in that issue for a future MSC, as I think that it's a larger issue that shouldn't hold this one up.

proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

* preserve *all* of `create` * don't preserve `notifications` or `algorithm`, and add some justifcation.

richvdh · 2019-07-22T16:56:38Z

I've updated the MSC to (1) change the create event so that all keys are preserved, and (2) clarify that I don't think the notifications property should be preserved, and (2b) to record why I think this is important.

Further input welcome...

proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

KitsuneRal

Typo fixing - however, might be entirely unnecessary if we keep algorithm around :)

proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

Co-Authored-By: Travis Ralston <[email protected]> Co-Authored-By: Kitsune Ral <[email protected]>

richvdh · 2019-08-19T10:22:23Z

Nothing else seems to be happening here, so I'd like to propose FCP:

@mscbot fcp merge

mscbot · 2019-08-19T10:22:26Z

Team member @richvdh has proposed to merge this. The next step is review by the rest of the tagged people:

No concerns currently listed.

Once at least 75% of reviewers approve (and none object), this will enter its final comment period. If you spot a major issue that hasn't been raised at any point in this process, please speak up!

See this document for info about what commands tagged team members can give me.

turt2live · 2022-05-04T20:41:25Z

This MSC is currently assigned to v10, though apparently we need to unblock MSC2174 too. #3604

turt2live · 2022-05-20T01:17:28Z

This went back to not having an assigned room version (pulled out of v10).

turt2live · 2023-06-26T17:18:11Z

This is now formally assigned to room version 11: #3820

turt2live · 2023-08-01T05:34:43Z

Spec PR: matrix-org/matrix-spec#1604

turt2live · 2023-08-15T06:19:57Z

Merged 🎉

Proposal to update the redaction algorithm

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richvdh and others added 2 commits July 16, 2019 19:26

Update proposals/2176-update-redaction-rules.md

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fix typo Co-Authored-By: Kitsune Ral <[email protected]>

preserve powerlevel

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richvdh mentioned this pull request Jul 16, 2019

Redactions should preserve the notifications/invite key on power levels matrix-org/matrix-spec#357

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Updates

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* preserve *all* of `create` * don't preserve `notifications` or `algorithm`, and add some justifcation.

turt2live self-requested a review July 22, 2019 16:55

turt2live added the unassigned-room-version Remove this label when things get versioned. label Jul 22, 2019

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richvdh commented Jul 26, 2019

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richvdh and others added 2 commits July 30, 2019 08:00

Apply suggestions from code review

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Co-Authored-By: Travis Ralston <[email protected]> Co-Authored-By: Kitsune Ral <[email protected]>

clarification

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richvdh mentioned this pull request May 19, 2022

prune_event strips keys needed for authentication from events. matrix-org/synapse#1831

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This was referenced May 26, 2022

What the dickens is prev_state? matrix-org/matrix-spec#1091

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Don't include redundant prev_state in new events matrix-org/synapse#12891

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turt2live mentioned this pull request May 24, 2023

MSC3820: Room version 11 #3820

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turt2live mentioned this pull request Jul 19, 2023

Room version 11 & MSC2176: Only preserve entirety of content instead of whole event matrix-org/synapse#15963

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turt2live added spec-pr-in-review A proposal which has been PR'd against the spec and is in review and removed spec-pr-missing Proposal has been implemented and is being used in the wild but hasn't yet been added to the spec labels Aug 1, 2023

zecakeh mentioned this pull request Aug 12, 2023

events: Update redacted types according to changes in room version 11 ruma/ruma#1619

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clokep mentioned this pull request Aug 23, 2023

Declare support for Matrix v1.8 matrix-org/synapse#16176

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Implement Matrix 1.8 changes ruma/ruma#1626

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Declare support for Matrix 1.8 matrix-org/dendrite#3226

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Be more tolerant towards weird data in transaction pdus element-hq/synapse#17893

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MSC2176: Update the redaction rules #2176

MSC2176: Update the redaction rules #2176

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MSC2176: Update the redaction rules #2176

MSC2176: Update the redaction rules #2176

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