Agendas: TPAC 2018

[jnurthen]

Draft agenda for the ARIA WG meetings at TPAC 2018, on Thursday 25 and Friday 26 October.

Please request meeting time/topics (in blocks of 15, 30, 45, or 60 minutes), by posting a comment.

We will update the agenda in this issue once we have more details.

Meetings during other group's time

date and time	location	topic	details	mentioned participants
Mon 22 Oct - 10.00-11.00	Rhône 4, Level 1 - Rhône Pasteur	Math Accessibility	Joint with APA (in APA room)	@joanmarie @JaninaSajka
Mon 22 Oct - 1.00-2.00pm	Saint Clair 4, Level 2 - Saint-Clair	Synchronization of EO and ARIA work	#806 (comment)	@yatil @mcking65 @sharronrush @bakkenb ,EO members, ARIA (especially APG) members

Thursday 25 October - Rhône 3B, Level 1 - Rhône Pasteur

time	topic	details	mentioned participants
8.30am	Arrive and Set up
9.00am	Welcome, Housekeeping and Agenda modifications
9.30am	Role Parity (pt 1)
10am	Break
10.30am	Principles for how much the HTML spec should restrict use of ARIA	#806 (comment)	@LJWatson @stevefaulkner @mcking65
11.15am	ARIA needs more interactive container role(s) with focusable/active non-presentational sub content	#806 (comment)	@stes-acc
12.30pm	Lunch
1.40pm	ARIA grid role and row role: new properties required	#806 (comment)	@stes-acc
2.30pm	AOM updates (and Acctree)		@alice
3.30pm	Break
4.00pm	AccName	* Relationship between AccName and HTML-AAM #806 (comment) * Things not addressed well (or at all) in the spec * Coming up with additional test cases, ensuring the spec explicitly and clearly covers those cases, then filing and fixing bugs in the user agents. Goal: All user agents calculating the same name.
5.30pm	end

Friday 26 October - Rhône 3B, Level 1 - Rhône Pasteur

time	topic	details	mentioned participants
8.30am	Arrive and Set up
9.00am	Housekeeping and Agenda modifications
9.15am	Annotations	#806 (comment)	@BigBlueHat @TzviyaSiegman @aleventhal @DavidMacDonald @halindrome
10am	Break
10.30am	Workflow pre/post mortem	Discuss how the new workflow is or isn't working for people
11.30am	Charter		plh
12.30pm	Lunch
1.30pm	CSS AAM
2pm	APG	Discuss patterns needed, how to get help creating them and direction of APG
3.30pm	Break
4.00pm	Role Parity (pt 2)
4.30pm	All ARIA roles that allow data input/output need aria-valuestate / aria-valuestatetext properties	#806 (comment)	@stes-acc
5pm	Wrap up	Actions, decisions etc.
5.30	end

[jnurthen]

Role Parity - 60 mins

[michael-n-cooper]

Meeting page with the rest of the info

[jnurthen]

@alice will you be able to update the ARIA WG on AOM?

[alice]

Absolutely! I believe @cookiecrook will be around too?

[stes-acc]

New requirements (roles,properties), APG improvements - 60 mins

Details below.

ARIA 1.2 Specification

1. ARIA needs more interactive container role(s) with focusable/active non-presentational sub content

o Problem with Listitems
 listitem: not focusable
 treeitem: focusable

o Problem with Treeitems
 Contain focusable subcontent
 Example: Windows 10 Power Options Dialog
• Lid close action
o On battery: (sleep) Select box
o Plugged in: (Action) Config Dialog

o Problem with Tokenizers
 Example:
Windows Outlook “To:” address field with multiple names representing objects, not strings

o Problem with sections
 Entire regions/sections with interactive subcontent can be active in mobile scenarios
(Tap activation, designers USE and DO specify actions here)
Nothing in ARIA can really cover this by now

o Problem with ARIA option role:
 no level info
 no possibility to group by property, just by structure

o Problem with Assistive Technologies
 Context Detection: Detect when is a list item is active
“This Listitem is focusable since it has an action AND interactive subcontent”
BUT I don’t need aria-selected/checked state and allow no input

o Proposals
 New role=composite/generic, role =“InteractiveList” with “InteractiveListItems”
 New “ListView” role
• Example: Windows Explorer ListView
• Contains focusable ListItems (rows) containing focusable subitems
• And no, a ListView is NOT a Treegrid, these are different
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/treegrid/examples/treegrid/treegrid-1.html?cell=force

o Alternatives
 Extend/subclass existing roles
 Fallback strategies?

o NO Alternatives
 Grid role for 1-column is NO alternative (!) for a List with active subitems
• When you hear grid you expect x/y spatial navigation, NOT linear navigation

JN: Added to Agenda

2. ARIA grid role and row role: new properties required

o Property to distinguish data-bound content from grids used for layout, e.g. role=”grid” aria-gridtype=”data/layout”
 Data Rows represent entire Objects in Business Applications
 Assistive Technology MUST know this to react appropriately
o New “Fixed” Rows/Columns properties
 Fixed = cannot be reordered
o Special Sum/Total Rows properties

JN: Added to agenda

3. All ARIA roles that allow data input/output need aria-valuestate / aria-valuestatetext properties

o Property to signal that something is not OK with a value or it needs additional processing
o aria-valuestate=”error/warning/info/custom” aria-valuestatetext=”string”
o Examples: Input, Checkbox... Grid Rows (Object invalid state), Listitem

JN: Added to Agenda

ARIA 1.1 APG

1. ARIA-APG: Reference signaling pattern for unobtrusive notifications needed
o Use cases
 Page Data Loading / Busy / Data Loading Complete states
(AT heuristics just speak page text on page load complete is NOT enough anymore 2018)
 Single control Data Loading / Busy / Data Loading Complete states
(often in business apps, aria-busy is NOT for this)
 Announcing results of a search performed, e.g. in a search field, “x results found” etc.
(Complete description of a reference pattern)
o Respective aria-live settings that are correctly interpreted by AT when set
(currently a game of luck across browser/screen reader combinations)

2. ARIA-APG: Complete list of valid role=”application” + aria-roledescription use cases needed
o For existing roles
o For custom controls
o AT recognition issues (!)

3. ARIA-APG: Recommended method how to indicate custom control properties using existing ARIA 1.1 needed
o ARIA 1.1 just addresses custom role descriptions, no custom property descriptions

JN: added to agenda in general APG session.

[mcking65]

I don't know how much time to dedicate to this topic: relationship between AccName and HTML-AAM (w3c/accname#8).

I imagine that it will take at least 15 minutes for everyone to wrap their heads around the issues.

I think we should have an objective of determining:

1. Ideal long term state
2. Goal for next spec versions

It's likely a 30-45 min discussion.

JN: Added to agenda

[mcking65]

Topic: Principles for how much the HTML spec should restrict use of ARIA

Duration: 60 minutes

Primary question: To what extent should the HTML specification allow ARIA to be used for remediation of existing content without having to change which HTML elements are used on a page?

Example of concerns in w3c/html-aria#110, and particularly comment by Matt King on June 26.

(JN: Added to draft agenda)

[mcking65]

Topic: Synchronization of EO and ARIA work

Duration: 30-45 minutes.

1. Particularly EO accessibility tutorials:

2. Some open issues in tutorials are similar to open APG issues (I will dig up some examples).

3. Some Tutorials cover similar or identical content but not in a harmonious way (will provide an example or two).

Long term goals:

1. Avoid duplication of effort.
2. create more harmony among WAI resources.
3. Create sinergy among WAI resources.

Outcome of discussion: Determine how to adjust plans for work in coming year to get closer to long term goals.

(JN: Added to draft agenda during EO's meeting on Tuesday)

[aleventhal]

Topic: ARIA annotation markup

Duration: 45 minutes.

ARIA annotations can help mark up areas of text or other content that points to other content within the same page. Examples are comments and footnotes. In addition, simple annotations may not belong in the same group, as they may not need to link to other content, but may contain additional text or information.

This time can be set aside to go over use cases. If use cases are already agreed on, then the time can be used to go over specific markup proposals.

(JN: Added to draft agenda)

[jnurthen]

Topic: Synchronization of EO and ARIA work
@yatil sounds like this will need EO. Are you and the other members of the group still around on Thursday or Friday? If so is there a timeslot you would prefer?

[yatil]

@jnurthen I doubt that a lot of participants are available Thur/Fri. I think @sharronrush, @bakkenb and I are around. It might be good for an ARIA delegation to visit EO briefly on Monday or Tuesday, in any case, to make sure that there is a common understanding.

[TzviyaSiegman]

@aleventhal if there is an annotation session, I will try to come. @BigBlueHat might be able to come as well.

[bakkenb]

@yatil & @jnurthen - I will only be in Lyon on Monday and Tuesday. Will be leaving Wednesday AM. Happy to work on carving out a time on Monday/Tuesday that will work, or Eric can represent EO on Thur or Fri during ARIA WG time.

[BigBlueHat]

@aleventhal I'd be happy to join (per @TzviyaSiegman's mention). FWIW, I'm co-editor of the W3C Web Annotation Data Model and would be happy to provide what I can from that past work and the discussions we had then. I'm glad to see this getting considered for ARIA and hope I can help in some way!

I do have a conflict with co-chairing the JSON-LD WG on these days, but once this 45 minutes gets slotted in, I'll try to make sure I can pop out to be there.

See you in Lyon regardless! 😃

[jnurthen]

Topic: Principles for how much the HTML spec should restrict use of ARIA

Duration: 60 minutes

Primary question: To what extent should the HTML specification allow ARIA to be used for remediation of existing content without having to change which HTML elements are used on a page?

Example of concerns in w3c/html-aria#110, and particularly comment by Matt King on June 26.

@stevefaulkner We will need you to discuss this - maybe @LJWatson and other interested parties too. I see you are both registered for ARIA on Thursday only so will be sure to schedule this then

[jnurthen]

@yatil & @jnurthen - I will only be in Lyon on Monday and Tuesday. Will be leaving Wednesday AM. Happy to work on carving out a time on Monday/Tuesday that will work, or Eric can represent EO on Thur or Fri during ARIA WG time.

@mcking65 and other interested parties - are you available to discuss this Tuesday during EO time?

[DavidMacDonald]

@aleventhal
@ShaneMc Shane McCarron and I worked on way to add footnotes and other notes. The initial idea was for new note, notegroup, and noteref elements in HTML5. My blog entry about it is here and the spec that we drafted is here

[joanmarie]

What about:

• Next steps for accname (could be paired with the AccName and HTML-AAM discussion):
  • Things not addressed well (or at all) in the spec
  • Coming up with additional test cases, ensuring the spec explicitly and clearly covers those cases, then filing and fixing bugs in the user agents. Goal: All user agents calculating the same name.
• Pre-mortem on the current work flow (We changed things based on last year's post-mortem. What's working and what needs tweaking?)

JN: ADDED TO AGENDA

[carmacleod]

@jnurthen Role Parity was in a comment but not in the draft schedule, so I grabbed 11.15-12.30 on Thurs to make sure it's discussed early on, in case it needs to bleed into Friday. There are a lot of outstanding issues inside the 4 main [ROLE PARITY] meta-issues:

• [ROLE PARITY] Determine which of these elements with existing ARIA role mappings require a new role #696 has 8 elements that mention a "TBD attribute", 3 with "possibly attribute", and a bunch of "patches welcome", etc
• [ROLE PARITY] Determine which of these mapped elements require a specific role, versus a generic role #697 has 10 new "specific" roles that need to be created, 14 elements that need more discussion, and 4 elements that mention a "TBD attribute"
• [ROLE PARITY] Determine if any of these mostly unmapped elements require a specific role #698 has 6 new "specific" roles that need to be created, 3 elements that need more discussion or investigation, and 12 elements that mention a "TBD attribute"
• method to determine how blocks of text are separated (aria-text separation (property)) #699 is the generic role issue (with any luck, this will be merged before then)

@joanmarie #815 seems relevant for:

AccName "Things not addressed well (or at all) in the spec"

[jnurthen]

@carmacleod while I didn't make it clear can you please let me edit the schedule. If you want a change please let me know via a comment.

[alice]

Re AOM:
Interaction events from assistive technology (please read linked discussion, it concerns the privacy issues many have raised) will be discussed at 5pm on Tuesday in Saint Clair 3A, Level 2 - Saint-Clair with the Editing TF - some of you may like to come along.

[BigBlueHat]

Just confirming that I'll be by tomorrow at 9:15 am per the schedule above unless I hear otherwise. See you tomorrow!